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  • Super Powerful Russian Turbine Locomotive

  • General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment
General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment

Moderator: John_Perkowski

 #969212  by HarryE
 
A new world record was set at Shcherbinka outside Moscow on September 7 as the world’s latest experimental gas turbine locomotive, the GT-1, hauled 170 freight cars weighing a total of 16,000 metric tonnes (17,637 English tons). This milestone took place at the All Russia Railway Research Institute’s experimental ring.

The locomotive uses a modified jet engine and runs on liquified natural gas. That's what the US needs to break its dependence on expensive diesel fuel for locomotives. http://en.rian.ru/video/20110908/166542990.html
 #969279  by mtuandrew
 
Interesting that Russia is still working to perfect a high-power gas-turbine-electric locomotive. Still, natural gas costs more than diesel per kW of energy, and gas turbines are notoriously inefficient when not run under medium-full load.

Wonder whether they'll get any orders.
 #971635  by timz
 
Was the record for heaviest train hauled by a turbine locomotive, or what?
 #978090  by v8interceptor
 
mtuandrew wrote:Interesting that Russia is still working to perfect a high-power gas-turbine-electric locomotive. Still, natural gas costs more than diesel per kW of energy, and gas turbines are notoriously inefficient when not run under medium-full load.

Wonder whether they'll get any orders.
The Russians, O.C have huge gas reserves which explains their interest in lng as a railway fuel..
Railpower industries designed a similar gas turbine road locomotive fueled by compressed natural gas but did not find much interest in the RR industry..IIRC, they were arguing that using a gas turbine adapted from the power generation industry would be more economical than using a gas engine derived from a diesel prime mover..
 #978314  by John_Perkowski
 
My knowledge is of the Union Pacific turbines, almost all of which were fueled by Bunker "C" fuel oil, which is the stuff getting close to paving asphalt as a refinery cracks the crude petroleum.

Even so, the major issue, as I recall, with turbines is the level of maintenance required. We're not talking about flying a turbine on a United or Aeroflot jet at 30,000 feet. The turbine is on the ground, and the air intake will scoop in all manner of foreign objects. Some may be grit at just a few microns in diameter, others may be blowing leaves and twigs. At the end of the day, maintenance of the turbine itself is one of the issues which sent UP's fleet to the sidelines.

If the Russians can manage air filtration, they'll have more success than UP did.
 #982070  by Desertdweller
 
Yes, John. And there were other problems, too.

The turbines were affected by air density, with power loss at high elevations and high ambient air temperatures. Turbines are only efficient in narrow rpm ranges. Perhaps a greater problem is the bearings in a turbine are vulnerable to the shocks encountered in railroad operation. Not just hard hooks, but rough track, jointed rail, switch frogs and crossings. This is much rougher service than encountered in other turbine operations: generating plants, aircraft, ships.

Maybe the biggest problem was the one that dogged UP's other non-standard power. How to deal with a breakdown on other railroads? With the run-through arrangements now common, oddballs would be spread all over the country, far from people and service facilities that could deal with prime mover failures.

One of my buddies was a yard clerk on the UP in LA. He said a favorite thing to do was to toss a brick into the exhaust stream of a gas turbine, to see how high it would be blown!

Les
 #982813  by HarryE
 
There have been major advances in turbine technology since UP experimented with the technology in the 1950s. I think that the dust and mechanical shock problems are exaggerated, although it must be admitted that the Textron Lycoming gas turbine engine in the Abrams tank required a lot of maintenance, forcing Textron to sell the division to Honeywell. I understand that Honeywell has ironed out the kinks.

Getting an LNG fueled turbine to function smoothly as the prime mover in a locomotive is an engineering problem. Having rail transportation not dependent on very expensive imported diesel fuel would be a big plus for the U.S. economy.
 #982822  by MEC407
 
Is there a big fuel efficiency advantage in using natural gas in a turbine versus using natural gas in a reciprocating engine? The main reason I ask is because the PowerHaul P616 diesel engine from GE is derived from the Jenbacher J616 natural gas engine. I don't suppose it would take much for GE to make a natural gas-fueled version of the P616 if a railroad wanted it.
 #982827  by Desertdweller
 
There is no denying that gas turbines work in tanks. If the railroad is a shock-filled environment, a tank is many times more so. Perhaps the shock-absorbing technology that protects turbine bearings in tanks can be adapted to rail use.

Liquified natural gas has been tried on the BN. Apparently, it works, although the late-model GE units I have run have reminders on the back wall of the cab that the unit is supposed to be run on Diesel fuel only. This may be a matter of injectors and rack adjustment.

Natural gas should result in much cleaner exhaust emissions. Drawbacks would be lack of fueling facilities, and increased danger of explosion in a wreck. Diesel fuel does not ignite easily, and I would think bunker C would be very hard to ignite unintentionally.

Les
 #982947  by John_Perkowski
 
I'm an artilleryman by military trade, but once in my life I was a battalion motor officer for an M109A2/A3 battalion. We used Detroit Diesel 6V53 and 8V71 engines in our power plants. The tankers (then M-60 series) used AVDS-1790 diesels.

When I went to Knox for BMO school, I received some orientation training to the M1 Abrams. Trust me, the "set it and forget it" method the railroads use for mainteance of a locomotive prime mover is not the maintenance method for an Abrams tank. The Army has a whole host of mechanics, starting with the driver and the TC of the tank, and preventive maintenance is the name of the game.

For a railroad to invest in the level of effort in inspecting and overseeing the power plant of a turbine that the Army uses for its tanks would be cost-prohibitive.
 #983058  by HarryE
 
MEC407 wrote:Is there a big fuel efficiency advantage in using natural gas in a turbine versus using natural gas in a reciprocating engine? The main reason I ask is because the PowerHaul P616 diesel engine from GE is derived from the Jenbacher J616 natural gas engine. I don't suppose it would take much for GE to make a natural gas-fueled version of the P616 if a railroad wanted it.
They could design a "combined cycle" system where the turbine's waste heat is turned into steam to drive another turbine or perhaps use a series of "mini-turbines" in a "gen-set" arrangement (Capstone makes these). Again, this is an engineering problem.
 #983719  by Eliphaz
 
Gas turbines and reciprocating engines have similar thermal efficiencies. the big advantage GTs have over reciprocating engines is weight, both in the engine frame itself and in the auxiliaries. A GT is air cooled and provides its own cooling air, and it has only two bearings (or three in some cases)that need lubrication. Those are huge advantages for an airplane obviously. It is advantageous at all for a freight loco which needs a certain weight for adhesion? I doubt it.
GTs can not be idled for any length of time, mainly because emissions rates go up exponentially as load is reduced. In stationary practice 50% turndown is considered highly advanced and requires a number of added features, multiple rows of inlet guide vanes, variable burner geometry etc.
for ships, planes and stationary plants the load profile is start up, go to full load, stay there for a long time , shut down. this is a mission GTs are well suited to. can train trips be adapted to the capabilities of the GT? I dont think the GT is particularly adaptable to train operation.

GTs and recips can both benefit by combined cycle. The deployment of the combined cycle the HarryG describes is how gas fired GTs took over the stationary power industry from fossil steam plants over the last two decades. that raised the thermal efficency of a gas fired GT from 25% to 45%.
Most diesel ships have heat recovery boilers for heating and cooling the ship, and there are many, many combined heat and power stationary plants with either recips or GTs providing exhaust heat for boilers as well as electric power.

the boiler , water cycle equipment steam turbine are more massive than the GT however, and only account fo about 1/3 of total output, so its hard to envision how this could be adapted to a locomotive.
 #983741  by MEC407
 
Thanks for the explanation, Eliphaz.

If a railroad was really interested in natural gas, it sounds like they'd be a lot better off looking into a conversion of an existing locomotive-compatible engine, or finding an existing natural gas engine that could easily be made locomotive-compatible -- e.g., what I described earlier with the GE P616 / J616 engines... correct?
 #984892  by Eliphaz
 
Spark ignition engines differ from Diesels only from the cylinder heads up. In fact one does not preclude the other,
there have been duel fuel engines for many years, and some of the most advanced ship engines now adays are duel fuel engines that burn both LNG and heavy fuel oil.
Interesting that the Jenbacher is a gas to diesel adaptation. The Waukesha 16V275GL is a 3.4MW gas burning spark ignition engine which I understand was adapted from a Diesel design.