Mileposts question.

[Engineer Spike]

Gordon,

That explained it all.
There is a bikepath on the R&S between Coons and JS. Unfortunately, the mileposts are gone. I thought I spotted some, but they were surveyer markers, but shapes like a D&H milepost. Was t Ihis single tracked? Where were the sidings and interlockings?

As I have mentioned, the 1st. and 2nd. subs are now measured from Mattawamkeag, ME. They kept the Guilford "Freight Main" mileages from Mechanicville-Bing.-DL&W line to Scranton, 1st. Sub.-ex PRR to Sunbury, PA.
The Albany main was still measured from Albany. It is ripped up from KN to VO, and shortlined to Delanson.

Spike

[ChiefTroll]

Spike -

In Time Table No. 28 of April 27,1952, the D&H from WY Cabin (WY north of Mechanicville, the connection with the Mechanicville Branch)to SC Cabin (North of Whitehall) was all double track ABS. In 1952, WY Tower was a manned interlocking and telegraph office. JS Cabin, the junction with the Ballston Branch from GV, was controlled from Saratoga Springs.

In Time Table No. 41 of October 26,1958, CN Cabin (West of WY) to DB Cabin (1.2 miles south of JS Cabin) was single track cTc (TCS). CN Cabin had been added to represent the south end of single track north of WY, and the single track ended at DB Cabin. So some time between 1952 and 1958 the line through Round Lake to DB, 1.2 miles south of JS Cabin, lost one of its two main tracks and had cTc installed.

In 1958, CN Cabin was remote controlled from XO Tower. DB and JS Cabins were controlled from Saratoga Springs, which was a Day-Night train order office. That was about one year before the Saratoga relocation.

By the way, I just happen to have some good references. The 1952 time table was a gift from Dick Cooper when I was the Track Supervisor at Plattsburgh and he was the engineer on one side of WR-1/RW-6. I was given the 1958 time table when I was a high school kid who happened to stop into the dispatchers' office at Oneonta. There I had the opportunity to meet and chat with Pete Collins, the Chief Dispatcher at the time and an expert on operating rules, for the first time. Later, Pete was the Agent at Oneonta, he not wanting to move to Albany, when I was the Track Supervisor there. We had several more good discussions, and I went to Pete's retirement party in 1971.

Gordon Davids

[Engineer Spike]

I have heard stories about "Coast-to-Coast" Cooper. I heard about when Bill Bibby tell about when he saw Cooper walking down Rte. 28, in N. River. He hit some ice on the Sanford Lake Branch, and put a unit on its side.


Getting back to Mecahnicville, I have heard that one of the yard tracks was a former main. How did they reconfigured things between XO and WY? How was WY reconfigured when the R&S mains were eliminated?

[Engineer Spike]

I have one more question. When going south from JS, toward Mohawk, there is a jog in the track just north of the Rte. 67 bridge. Someone told me that there had been a second track between JS and Rte. 67. Did they just straight rail into the former diverging route at some point?

[ChiefTroll]

Spike -

My track chart ca. 1971 shows a jog in the Ballston Branch (GV to JS) just north of the NY 67 overhead bridge. It appears that the existing main track would have been east of the other track. My April 27,1952 Time Table 28 shows a southward siding on the Ballston Branch south of JS, but does not specify whether it is east or west of the main. There was a spring switch at the south end of the siding governed by automatic signals 12.1 and 12.2 (on the main) - 12.2A (on the siding). The entire Ballston Branch, from GV to JS, was cTc, Rule 261. I don't know if signals 12.1 or 12.2A could have been controlled, with three arms arranged vertical (Rule 292) to permit opposing moves north of GV while a southward train was in the clear on the siding. I also don't know if that siding was a vestige of a former second main track. Time Table 41 of October 26, 1958 indicates the same arrangement for the southward siding. During that time, JS was controlled by the operator at Saratoga Springs.

For your earlier question regarding a former main track through Mechanicville Yard, I don't have personal recollections of the track layout before the New Connection was built, but . . . The track chart shows the former Saratoga Division main east of the later main track, and diverging at what was CN Cabin near Sucker Brook. The former Saratoga Division main track would have been west (south) of all of the D&H yard tracks. Does that make sense?

- Gordon Davids

[Engineer Spike]

Gordon-

Thanks for explaining the area south of JS. That area intersets me becaues my wife's extended family all lived on Oak St. Ballston Spa, which is next to the tracks, just north of JS. My father-in-law said that he remembers when JS tower still stood. He also told about how some property was taken when they moved the plant to line up with the new R.O.W.
He also told about the summer when he worked as a trackman, while on summer vacation from high school. They were changing rail on the 3rd. Sub Main. He got the job because he is Italian, and back then all of the formen were too. This forman was a family friend. The trackman's wage was more that the average wage locally. He thought that he was something else, being in high school, and making more than most adults, who were feeding families.

In its various incarnations, was it possible to have multiple moves through JS?

I have an altogether new question. In one of the previous posts, you were talking about TCS between WY, and JS. Was the rest of the Saratoga Sub. single tracked in the same era? I used to work with Conductor Joe Corsale. He was the last guy to have worked out of the old downtown yard. He said something about it being single iron from the north end of old (original line through downtown) Saratoga to Cook's. It this a correct recolection?

[ChiefTroll]

<< In its various incarnations, was it possible to have multiple moves through JS?

Spike -

>> I'm sure it was possible. In 1952 the Saratoga Division was double track ABS for the entire distance from TS Cabin (Thatcher Street Albany) to SC Cabin, and the Ballston Branch had its southward siding south of JS. A parallel move of a southward train to GV and a northward train from WY was possible, but of course they couldn't cross over in each other's face (northward from GV and southward to WY). Also on the Saratoga, KN to Maiden Lane was double track ABS, and Maiden Lane to TS was non-signaled within yard limits which extended from Kenwood to WX. One exception - Two main tracks cTc (sic) between XO and WY.

<< I have an altogether new question. In one of the previous posts, you were talking about TCS between WY, and JS. Was the rest of the Saratoga Sub. single tracked in the same era? I used to work with Conductor Joe Corsale. He was the last guy to have worked out of the old downtown yard. He said something about it being single iron from the north end of old (original line through downtown) Saratoga to Cook's. It this a correct recollection?

>> That was correct by 1958. The Saratoga Division had been single tracked by then between W Cabin (0.3 miles north of the old Saratoga Springs station) and SU Cabin ("Summit," south end of Cooks). Its interesting to note that the Saratoga was also single track from CN Cabin, 2.2 miles west of WY, to DB Cabin, 1.2 miles south of JS. So, including the siding south of JS, you still had two tracks through JS on the Saratoga Main, and two tracks south of JS on the Ballston Branch.

- Gordon Davids

[Engineer Spike]

When did the TCS replace the ABS 251 on the 3rd. sub mains? Was the TCS controlled by various operators, and when did the boards get consolidated into a central dispatching center? I have heard that the initial TCS consolidated control center was in the Plaza, in albany. Later it moved to Colonie, then Maxon Rd.

CP had wanted to move it to Montreal, but the dispatcher's union made the argument that it was against national security to have a vital main line controlled in a foreign land, and they succeeded!

[JayBee]

CP had wanted to move it to Montreal, but the dispatcher's union made the argument that it was against national security to have a vital main line controlled in a foreign land, and they succeeded!

The move to Montreal didn't happen because it would have put the Dispatchers outside the reach of the FRA. In cases like an accident the Dispatchers have to take a pee test, the FRA could request such, but if the Dispatchers worked in Canada they could refuse, the FRA could not Order such a test, eventually a Canadian court could order the Dispatcher to submit to a test, but it would be long after the incident.

[RussNelson]

Found this milepost on the Zim Smith Trail just east of the I-87 bridge, which reads (I think) RP 165. Given that the tracks were formerly D&H, I expect that means 165 miles to Rouses Point, which is about right. Given that it was just painted on, I couldn't say if that was pre-repainting or post-repainting mileage.

[ChiefTroll]

Russ -
Round Lake was 165.3 miles from Rouses Point, and 25.5 miles from Albany. That milepost, on the original R&S main line, was never repainted. The other side of the milepost should show A 26.
By the way, I had worked up a detailed response to Spike's question on location of train dispatchers, etc, and it went off into cybersomewhere. I'll reconstitute it when I have a few minutes, soon.
- Gordon Davids

[Engineer Spike]

I'm looking forward to it.

[RussNelson]

The other side of the milepost should show A 26.

I have no doubt that you are correct, but no matter how much I stare at the original high-rez photo, I can't make out anything on the left side; not in this photo nor the other photo I took at the same time.

[ChiefTroll]

Correction: The other (north) side of the milepost "did" show A-26. The painted number is gone. It's been more than 47 years since the D&H painted anything near Round Lake.

Every milepost between Albany and Rouses Point via Round Lake had an A mileage and an RP mileage, which added to 191. The standard location was on the east side of the main tracks, except for A-143/RP-48 at Willsboro, which was on the west side near the tool house to avoid the station platform.

The international border at Rouses Point was at mileage A-192.06. To the best of my recollection there was no concrete mile post there, only a border monument. Someone with a more recent memory may correct me on that.

- Gordon Davids

[ChiefTroll]

Re: Mileposts Question.
Post by Engineer Spike » 30 Jul 2012 22:40
When did the TCS replace the ABS 251 on the 3rd. sub mains?

I believe most of the initial TCS work between Saratoga Springs and Whitehall was completed in 1957-1958. It was the Saratoga Subdivision at the time, which extended from mile post (Minus) A-1.78 at the south interlocking limits of KN Tower, plus Kenwood Yard, past mile post A-0/RP-191 at Maiden Lane Station (Lower level of Albany Union Station) via Round Lake to mile post A-79.3 at “The Elbow” north of Whitehall.

I recall riding through Whitehall on the October 1959 Capital District Railroad Club excursion and seeing the portable rail welding plant set up to make CWR strings of the rail released from the Saratoga Sub single track project.

The line relocation around Ballston Spa (JS to BM) was completed in 1950, and around Saratoga Springs in 1959.

Was the TCS controlled by various operators, and when did the boards get consolidated into a central dispatching center?

Going back to the early 1950's and long before, the D&H had four dispatchers’ offices - Carbondale, Oneonta, Albany and Plattsburgh. Each was responsible for its own division. Carbondale dispatched Wilkes-Barre (plus the WBC) to Nineveh, Oneonta dispatched Binghamton to KN and QS, Albany dispatched KN to Whitehall (SC Cabin), and Plattsburgh dispatched from the north limits of SC to Delson Jct, including the NJ Ry.

On the Saratoga Sub, TCS had been installed incrementally between KN and WX, controlled by an operator in the Albany Dispatchers’ Office. KN was remoted to Albany in 1959. By 1958, JA (Waterford Jct.) to BK (Brick Yard) had been single-tracked, with control of JA, BK, XO, WY and CN Cabins under the operator at XO. Going out the Susquehanna Sub, Mechanicville West and QS were under the B&M operator at Mechanicville Yard Office. GV Cabin was controlled by the operator at Mohawk Yard.

Back to the Saratoga Sub, CN to DB Cabin (south of JS) had been single tracked by 1958. DB through KG, the south end of double track at Whitehall, were controlled by the operator at Saratoga Springs. SC Cabin, the north end of double track at Whitehall, was controlled by the operator at Whitehall.

Sometime in 1959, before the opening of the Saratoga Springs relocation, the TCS machine from Saratoga Springs was moved to Whitehall. The Albany and Plattsburgh dispatchers were consolidated at Whitehall in the west side of the passenger station and given direct control of the TCS between DB and SC. The local operators at Albany (now physically but not operationally divorced from the dispatchers’ office) and XO still handled the same TCS territories. They had always been under the direction of the train dispatcher at Albany, then at Whitehall. On the Champlain Subdivision, VD (Valcour, gone by 1958), SJ and BU Cabins were still handled by the operator at Plattsburgh. CV and NR were handled by the switchtender on the Rutland Crossing at Rouses Point.

Around 1961, the TCS controlled by the Albany operator was consolidated at XO. When TCS was installed on the Champlain Sub. in 1965, or shortly before, the Whitehall dispatchers were moved back to Albany with one control machine for the north end.

Carbondale had already been consolidated at Oneonta, with Oneonta directly controlling the Penn Sub from WC to SW (Nineveh) as well as the entire Susquehanna Sub. except RA to OG at Oneonta, handled by the operator at FA Tower The south end of the Penn Sub and the WBC were directly controlled by the operator at SX office at Hudson under the Oneonta dispatcher. When the Whitehall dispatchers moved to Albany, the Oneonta dispatchers joined them, thus creating one D&H dispatchers’ office on the fourth floor of the General Office Building.

When the D&H vacated the General Office Building (after my D&H time, 1974?) the dispatchers were moved to Colonie Yard Office. I don’t recall the year that they were moved to the tool house at Maxon Road. They were never located at the relocated D&H office on Beaver Street.

- Gordon Davids