P32ACDM operation questions

[SooLineRob]

Questions regarding dual mode operations of these units:

When switching from diesel/electric to electric (third rail) operation, is there a specific time the diesel engine must idle before shutdown and loading? Question asks if diesel engine is immediately shut down "hot" after operation, and how long it takes diesel engine to reach operating temperature before it will allow electrical load.


Is it possible to raise/lower third rail shoes via a trainline ciruit? Questions asks if you're operating two P32ACDM's back-to-back, can you raise/lower shoes on the trailing unit.


If operating two P32ACDM's back-to-back, can you switch both units from diesel to electric third rail operation at the same time? Question asks if you can shut down/start up the diesel engine on all units in the consist.


When operation in "push mode", cab car leading, can you control multiple units' transistion from diesel to electric third rail operation? Questions asks if two units are in the consist and both on line, can you control the transistion entirely from the cab car; raising/lowering shoes, starting/stopping of diesel engine, etc.

What is the approximate maximum train length (number of coaches) the HEP system can provide for? Question is generic in nature; I realize differences in equipment (Amtrak vs MNCR) may vary the answer.


Besides the third rail shoe hardware, are there any significant differences between Amtrak and Metro North units? Question asks can each road's units be used by the other if third rail equipment were changed/modified.


Any other "unique", or unusual, operating scenarios that are possible would be appreciated. My curiousity stems from the lack of photos I've seen of multiple P32ACDM's hauling trains; they seem to be exclusively used as single unit consists. Thank you in advance for your replies.

[DutchRailnut]

Questions regarding dual mode operations of these units:

When switching from diesel/electric to electric (third rail) operation, is there a specific time the diesel engine must idle before shutdown and loading? Question asks if diesel engine is immediately shut down "hot" after operation, and how long it takes diesel engine to reach operating temperature before it will allow electrical load.

The diesel is kept hot in third rail mode by kim hotstart heaters( in both oil and water), after starting it will take time for engine to spool up to 835 Rpm before you can switch over, (about 1/2 mile at 45 mph) i winter it may take longer , a GE will not load more than 25% if cooler than 140 degrees, you would get cold engine warning

Is it possible to raise/lower third rail shoes via a trainline ciruit? Questions asks if you're operating two P32ACDM's back-to-back, can you raise/lower shoes on the trailing unit.

yes if multiple units are used the shoes on both will raise and lower by manipulating a switch

If operating two P32ACDM's back-to-back, can you switch both units from diesel to electric third rail operation at the same time? Question asks if you can shut down/start up the diesel engine on all units in the consist.

yes if set up properly, both units, as with any diesel, will respond to all signals from lead unit, even switching modes and shutdown, start, etc.

When operation in "push mode", cab car leading, can you control multiple units' transistion from diesel to electric third rail operation? Questions asks if two units are in the consist and both on line, can you control the transistion entirely from the cab car; raising/lowering shoes, starting/stopping of diesel engine, etc.

yes both units will follow all functions of the 27 point jumper including shutdown, start, breaker reset, etc, it does not matter if a cab car or other engine gives the commands.

What is the approximate maximum train length (number of coaches) the HEP system can provide for? Question is generic in nature; I realize differences in equipment (Amtrak vs MNCR) may vary the answer.

in commuter service the max is about 7 cars, each car will take about 100 hp off the mainengine for HEP, so any HEP load more than equivelent of 700 hp will leave you short on traction power.

Besides the third rail shoe hardware, are there any significant differences between Amtrak and Metro North units? Question asks can each road's units be used by the other if third rail equipment were changed/modified.

The Amtrak units do not have emergency egress hatch required for park avenue tunnel operations, tunnels near NYP are different, they have walkways.

Any other "unique", or unusual, operating scenarios that are possible would be appreciated. My curiousity stems from the lack of photos I've seen of multiple P32ACDM's hauling trains; they seem to be exclusively used as single unit consists. Thank you in advance for your replies.

[SooLineRob]

Thank you Dutch for your quick, informative reply.

[MN-P32AC-DM-201-227]

Hello Dutch, When the locomotive leaves GCT how long could you leave it in "electric" mode? Also dose the locomotives Third rail shoes continue to rub on the Third rail, until there is no more Third rail available. If so dose the locomotive still receive power through the Third rail.
Thanks, John

[amtrakhogger]

Amtrak usually runs 9-10 cars on the LSL (48 & 49) with one P32ACDM NY-ALB.

[DutchRailnut]

Amtrak stops every 20 to 30 miles, MNCR stops and goes every 2 to 3 miles.

The P32acdm is not a full time electric engine, it was originally designed for max electric speed of 45 mph, later upgraded to 60 mph.
On MNCR they do not want you to run in electric north of MO jct (mp5), any forced running in electric needs permission from operations center.
On the Amtrak P32acdm's the shoes are retracted (up) once they leave third rail at about 45th street, on MNCR the shoes will contact the third rail as long as there is third rail.
can locomotive draw powerr from both diesel and electric, NO its one or the other.

[Allen Hazen]

Dutch--
Checking to see if I've got my New York geography right... When you say Amtrak's P32ACDM "third rail at about 45th street": so, the train pulls out of Penn Station (about 33rd street) and turns right to go up the West Side line: there is third rail for about the first half mile? (Hmm. A lot of the track north of there on Manhattan is above ground, and come to think of it there ISN'T third on the parts-- 70th Street and up-- that I've railfanned.)
On Metro North "they do not want you to run in electric north of MO jct (mp5)": milepost 5 from GCT? So that would be about where the railroad goes over the East River into the Bronx? Since MNCR runs m.u. trains well beyond there, if "on MNCR the shoes will contact the third rail as long as there is third rail," then there is a fair bit of running with the shoe in contact with the third rail but not drawing any power? (Hmm. Isn't there a board or something OVER the third rail on MNCR? Which would be in the way if you tried to raise the shoe before the end of the third rail....)
(Thanks for posting details about P32ACDM operations, b.t.w.: this sort of information is not something the mere railfans among us have ready access to!)

[ATK]

The Empire Connection, as its called, is the new tunnel constructed in the early 90's running from (approximately) 10th Ave. & 32nd St. to 11th Ave. & 36th St. for the purpose of connecting Penn Station to the former West Side Freight Line. There is single track through the tunnel with both 3rd rail and overhead catenary. Three blocks north of the tunnel is CP Empire where the railroad goes from single to double track -- maybe 2 or 3 car lengths north of that is the end of the 3rd rail and overhead. Why have overhead catenary? It has happened on numerous occasions where either a P32ACDM was not available for service (and substituted by a P42DC) or maybe a unit was having electrical problems such that it would not take power off the 3rd rail (but would run OK in diesel). This would result in an AEM-7 towing the Empire Service train either into or out of Penn Station, obviously depending on which direction the train was headed.

There are no issues with the locomotive being in contact with the 3rd rail when operating in diesel mode -- locomotive doesn't care that 3rd rail voltage is present and is still operating in diesel. On the engineer's "IFD" display screen, there is a 3rd rail voltage indication, which is the display of the system measuring the actual rail voltage -- a pretty good indication to any engineer that he's on the rail or not. On Amtrak locomotives only, there is also a "shoe status" indication which tells you whether the shoes are up or down. It is not possible to raise or lower 3rd rail shoes on MNR locos, only possible on Amtrak units. MNR locos have their shoes "blocked" down, gauged for the correct height of the under-running 3rd rail. MNR locos operate like this all the time regardless of operation in 3rd rail or diesel only territory. Amtrak of course, uses the LIRR style over-running 3rd rail. Amtrak locos use air pressure to keep the shoes in the down position; air is removed and spring actuated to return the shoes to the up position. Also worth noting, Amtrak locomotives have a provision in their computer system software that prohibits an engineer from raising the 3rd rail shoes when the system is also sensing the presence of 3rd rail voltage (i.e. rail voltage as displayed on the IFD screen is greater than zero). Without this safety feature, and it would be possible for an engineer to raise his shoes while still on the rail, the result would be the shoes hitting the protective cover over the 3rd rail and probably break the shoes or shoe paddles. A good safety feature, however I seriously doubt that any engineer would ever try and do this.

[SooLineRob]

Thank you ATK for your quick, informative reply.

[NV290]

Any other info on the "Emergency egress hatch"? Where is that and why is it required for operating in the Park Ave tunnels?

[DutchRailnut]

In NYP and its tunnels the tunnels are bored and have sidewalks, so engineer incase of fire can get away from engine.



In park Ave tunnels there is no side clearance, incase of fire either engine room or fuel tank will burn , causing flames to engulf sides of engine.
To give engineer a fair chance to escape alll motive power used in and out of GCT must have front egress.
On old electrics this was done with front door and egress over pony truck
on F units they had to have Nose door
On Genesis a egress hatch was provided (on MNCR units only)

[NV290]

In NYP and its tunnels the tunnels are bored and have sidewalks, so engineer incase of fire can get away from engine.



In park Ave tunnels there is no side clearance, incase of fire either engine room or fuel tank will burn , causing flames to engulf sides of engine.
To give engineer a fair chance to escape alll motive power used in and out of GCT must have front egress.
On old electrics this was done with front door and egress over pony truck
on F units they had to have Nose door
On Genesis a egress hatch was provided (on MNCR units only)

Where exactly is this hatch? I look at pictures of these units and cant figure out where it is? I see no grab irons coming from up high either?

[DutchRailnut]

No grab irons , it has ladder on inside of hatch with a knotted rope.



Amtrak units do not have this hatch.

[NV290]

No grab irons , it has ladder on inside of hatch with a knotted rope.



Amtrak units do not have this hatch.

Thats crazy!!! Thanks for the picture as well.

[MEC407]

Great picture. Always wondered what that little door was for and why the Amtrak units didn't have them... mystery solved!