World's highest railway -- powered by GE

[MEC407]

Service has begun on China's railway to Tibet -- powered by GE diesel locomotives, specially designed for the extreme high altitude.

Here's a news blurb; click the photo to see a slide show with dozens of photos, including many of the new GE locos:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060629/ap_ ... mary_box_1

[es80ac]

Looks like they just rehashed a 50 year old carbody from the E60 locomotives on some sorry looking water-down Hi_ad trucks. not the best work GE has done. pretty sloppy design work on the appearance, the 3800 hp engine is nothing to write home about either.

[pennsy]

Hi MEC etc.,

Your link does not work. Check it out.

The part that is interesting about these engines is that in order to achieve their horsepower rating, they had to compress the available air and feed it to the engine. The air is so thin that the engine could not produce its rated horsepower without the "extra" air. Fuel is fed per normal. Excellent piece of Engineering to fit a very special problem in operation.

I have been told that those, such as us, that ride this train and are not used to the thin air are given a bottle of oxygen to assist their breathing. Really interesting way to travel. Something like exerting yourself while at the top of a mountain. Really hard without the extra oxygen.

[MEC407]

Sorry that the link doesn't work anymore. I guess Yahoo took down the article. I'll try to see if I can find it elsewhere.

But yeah, I think 3800 HP is pretty impressive considering the altitude. I can't remember if these units have an FDL, HDL, or GEVO, but regardless, I'm sure the horsepower would be considerably higher at lower altitudes.

As far as the appearance is concerned, GE simply created a design in accordance with what the customer specified. There's nothing "sloppy" about it.

[pablo]

Yes, those links get pitched after a while.

es80ac, read the article. If you did and you still think your comments are right, you're quite dumb. Perhaps that's better than just sounding ignorant as you do with your original post.

Dave Becker

[es80ac]

"es80ac, read the article. If you did and you still think your comments are right, you're quite dumb. Perhaps that's better than just sounding ignorant as you do with your original post. "


For somebody who is a moderator on one of the forum to resort to balatant personal attack, you are way out of line.

I already read the original article, and I have seen the actual locomotive. I also know they use the original FDL engine.

Instead of accusing someone else of being dumb or ignorant without knowing who you are insulting, you should look in the mirror for ignorance and stupidity.

[pablo]

es80ac, I am a moderator. If you had posted this on my forum, I would ask you to restate your post in such a way that explained your (foolish) opinion, and, absent of your doing that, delete the post. Clearly, you didn't read the associated article. I may not be a huge fan of GE, but what has been accomplished by all parties involved with that railroad in question is truly impressive.

Your comments:

Looks like they just rehashed a 50 year old carbody from the E60 locomotives on some sorry looking water-down Hi_ad trucks.

Incredibly foolish. Clearly, you are an expert about the type of work done by GE to get said trains working. Do you know anything about the trucks themselves? And, quite honestly, aesthetics have nothing to do with the design or performance. Sorry that your taste has been offended.

not the best work GE has done.

Did you read the article? Of course not.

pretty sloppy design work on the appearance.

Covered above. Irrelevant in this design application.

the 3800 hp engine is nothing to write home about either.

Again, did you read the article?

Please don't waste people's time with ignorant posts.

Dave Becker

[MEC407]

Note from the mod: personal attacks are, as always, not acceptable here. Keep it respectful. That applies to everybody, regardless of viewpoint or expertise.

And yes, if you're going to say that Locomotive XYZ is crap, please have some concrete reasons to back up that statement.

[es80ac]

Do I know anything about the truck involved? Of course I do, a fabricated C truck similar to the one used on the Genesis type.

If you read my original post, I said nothing negative about the railway itself. Only stating my observation about what ge had done with this batch of locomotive.

Knowing how they work, basically recycling old design (Genesis carbody, P30PH tail, and a E60 nose). They had done nothing special with this engine. I will stand by my opinion. Why do they use 3 of these to haul trains on to Tibet? Because they have no confidence in the reliablity or to say nothing about the horsepower.

The reason Ge gotten this order is because the head of Chinese ministry is only enthralled with anything foreign, and because the orginal batch of c36 (nd5) was quiet well spoken for. But that was 1984, it is 2006, they still can only muster 3800 hp? 200 less than the original c36?

If you don't like my opinion, well tough. Being a moderator, you can try to bully anyone around on this forum. If you feel being empowered by this, then you are truly pathetic! Have you seen one of these thing first hand by the way? So who is foolish or ignorant?

[MEC407]

They had done nothing special with this engine. I will stand by my opinion.

I'm sure they could have (and would have) "done something special" with that locomotive, if that is what the customer had asked for and had been willing to pay for. But presumably the customer wanted something basic and functional, and considering the tremendous expense associated with the entire project, I doubt the customer had any money left over to spend on a flashy-looking outer shell.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and I thank you for clarifying it.

[pablo]

I'm not sure who you are, or what your knowledge is. Your original post looks like a foamer unhappy that the new GE loco isn't pretty enough.

Regardless of your later posts, which try to help you dig out of the foamer hole you're in, some things for you to consider, which you no doubt did not:

1. The conditions where these units operate are among the most harsh on earth, if not the most harsh. Typical power available in the US would not work there. Undoubtedly, there was some engineering that needed to be done to get units that work in this environment. The burgeoning market in China is rather wide-open, so proprietary information would likely need to be kept close to the vest. I'm quite certain you simply don't know everything because GE doesn't need you to know.

Also consider that as this is a growing market, GE likely went all out to demonstrate that they are worth buying. Or, buying more.

2. So, if it's a fabricated truck similar to the Genesis type, where did the Hi-Ad comment come from? You already know the technology involved is more than a simple Hi-Ad.

3. If you know anything further about where the unit operates, under the guise of the Communist China government, did you expect a lot of money spent on the appearance? Did you think GE would engineer complex curves and the like on the nose of a unit out of kindness, when the customer didn't care? Using off the shelf components is a GE staple, which a few threads were talking about recently on the EMD forum in light of their recent revelation that shared components save money. Since you're new, you might not have seen that.

4. It's not just that I don't like your opinion. It's that your (original post's) opinion offers nothing substantive, and, as I mentioned, I'd have asked you to revise of use more knowledge in your original post, which your subsequent posts have done. If you feel that's bullying, you'll have a tough time here at railroad.net.

Dave Becker

[es80ac]

I'm not sure who you are, or what your knowledge is. Your original post looks like a foamer unhappy that the new GE loco isn't pretty enough.

Regardless of your later posts, which try to help you dig out of the foamer hole you're in, some things for you to consider, which you no doubt did not:

1. The conditions where these units operate are among the most harsh on earth, if not the most harsh. Typical power available in the US would not work there. Undoubtedly, there was some engineering that needed to be done to get units that work in this environment. The burgeoning market in China is rather wide-open, so proprietary information would likely need to be kept close to the vest. I'm quite certain you simply don't know everything because GE doesn't need you to know.

Also consider that as this is a growing market, GE likely went all out to demonstrate that they are worth buying. Or, buying more.

2. So, if it's a fabricated truck similar to the Genesis type, where did the Hi-Ad comment come from? You already know the technology involved is more than a simple Hi-Ad.

3. If you know anything further about where the unit operates, under the guise of the Communist China government, did you expect a lot of money spent on the appearance? Did you think GE would engineer complex curves and the like on the nose of a unit out of kindness, when the customer didn't care? Using off the shelf components is a GE staple, which a few threads were talking about recently on the EMD forum in light of their recent revelation that shared components save money. Since you're new, you might not have seen that.

4. It's not just that I don't like your opinion. It's that your (original post's) opinion offers nothing substantive, and, as I mentioned, I'd have asked you to revise of use more knowledge in your original post, which your subsequent posts have done. If you feel that's bullying, you'll have a tough time here at railroad.net.

Dave Becker

Obviously it is you who know nothing about what the current market condition is like on the Chinese railway. Where the domestic builders are under high pressure to deliver not only functional power but also asthetic appeal. Don't believe me, do some search on what DF11G, SS9G, and see what they look like.

Your shallow view of the world keeps you from knowing what the real world is like out there.

ge thinks they can rest on their old reputation, if that is the case, this along with yet to materialize deal to produce 6000 hp engine will be their last deals for a long long time.

From a historically point of view. Do you know why Amtrak gave ge the original order for Genesis, instead of EMD? Because then ge had enough willingness to produce a whole new design instead doing rehash design.

I don't worried about bullies. Just don't like one who hides beind the title of a moderator.

[pablo]

Are you suggesting that the Chinese government asked GE to design something revolutionary and aesthetically pleasing and GE refused? I doubt it. It was likely irrelevant, like with many other locomotives GE will do for China, and therefore it was ignored.

Shallow world view? Huh?

GE can rest on their reputation, apparently: is someone else designing locomotives for this application, and I just missed it? With only two large locomotive maufacturers (I'm ignoring Indian builders of ALCo designs, sinc ethere aren't too many of them travelling to China, or the US, for that matter) there's not much push for revolutionary technology. Who else is coming up with 6000hp locos? EMD? Sure they have one...where are their orders?

You might be right about the Genesis. So, to connect to this post, have you inspected one of the Chinese units firtshand? Can you guarantee or otherwise verify that these units don't have anything new under the cowl? And likewise, do you suggest that there are no parts on the Genesis found on another locomotive? I sincerely doubt that the Chinese units are merely a rehash, but as GE is the leading builder of locomotives in the world right now, clearly they are doing something right...or else the Chinese might have found another alternative.

And, finally...again, this isn't bullying, silly. And, who's hiding? You can't bully someone who hides behind a forum handle, anyway... Please stay on task here.

Dave Becker

[es80ac]

Are you suggesting that the Chinese government asked GE to design something revolutionary and aesthetically pleasing and GE refused? I doubt it. It was likely irrelevant, like with many other locomotives GE will do for China, and therefore it was ignored.

Shallow world view? Huh?

GE can rest on their reputation, apparently: is someone else designing locomotives for this application, and I just missed it? With only two large locomotive maufacturers (I'm ignoring Indian builders of ALCo designs, sinc ethere aren't too many of them travelling to China, or the US, for that matter) there's not much push for revolutionary technology. Who else is coming up with 6000hp locos? EMD? Sure they have one...where are their orders?

You might be right about the Genesis. So, to connect to this post, have you inspected one of the Chinese units firtshand? Can you guarantee or otherwise verify that these units don't have anything new under the cowl? And likewise, do you suggest that there are no parts on the Genesis found on another locomotive? I sincerely doubt that the Chinese units are merely a rehash, but as GE is the leading builder of locomotives in the world right now, clearly they are doing something right...or else the Chinese might have found another alternative.

And, finally...again, this isn't bullying, silly. And, who's hiding? You can't bully someone who hides behind a forum handle, anyway... Please stay on task here.

Dave Becker

Only 2 builders? Do you think United States is the only country on this planet? Statement like that only reflect on your own lack insight about anything and your shallowness.

In china alone, there are half a dozen other builders, I know at least 2 already has their own 6000 hp engines. Not to mention the builders in Europe.

Tibet railway use GE because the turbo charger technology is what Chinese railway is after, and because ge's claimed experience with high altitude application in south america. But do not think for a minute this is not only a stop gap measure until the domestic builders refine their own design in the DF8B and DF8C. EMD was not chosen because 2 cycle engine is not appropriate.

Well I see no more point in shed more light on a blackhole, so this will be my last reply to this topic.

[pablo]

Good...perhaps you can learn some more about what's going on over there.

Are you aware of China's penetration of that market? Or even EMD's? Of course there are more than two builders in this earth (I referenced one, but you might have missed that in your haste to be wrong) and there are more than two builders in the United States, too. As has happened often, the United States has a design lead currently, that may indeed disappear once locos are reverse engineered. Look at the RS-1 in Russia back in the postwar days as an example. In any case, a joint press release from China and GE said:

GE’s locomotives, Incremental Train Control System™, CTS-2™ switch machines and Locotrol™ distributed power will play an important role in helping the MoR realize its goals of increasing velocity, capacity, productivity and reliability throughout China’s rail network.

That's why GE was chosen. Undoubtedly there were other builders for the 6500 locomotives China has now. So why choose GE for Tibet? Say with me...."new technology."

Sadly, as you will not post again, perhaps you could touch upon some of the items I brought up that you did not address. Feel free to PM me to discuss if you would like. I'll look forward to it.

Dave Becker, who always uses his real name.