B&O competitive edge vs. PRR

[Septa Fan]

In a prior post, my friends have authoritatively reported that the B&O sustained competition against the PRR based on class and service. Where did the B&O have a competitive advantage over the PRR in Class, Route and/or Service ? Washington- Chicago ? Washington- Pittsburgh ? And how different were the service offerings ?
Thank you
SEPTA FAN

[walt]

The B&O was always much smaller than the PRR and probably didn't have a "competitive advantage" anywhere, at least in the usual sense of that term. PRR did not run direct service between DC & Pittsburgh, or DC and Chicago; the closest was the "southern" branch of the Broadway Limited which ran through Baltimore and York, Pa and connected with the "main" ( NYC-Chicago) branch at Harrisburg. B&O's DC-NY service actually terminated at Jersey City, because the B&O was not permitted to use the Hudson River Tunnels. Those who favor the B&O base that assessment on the level of personal service provided on B&O trains when compared to that provided on the much more numerous PRR trains.

[Septa Fan]

Walt,
I think that the PRR Liberty Limited was an independent, nonstop from Washington to Chicago in competition with the Capitol Limited. THe Liberty was discontinued in1957.
Thank you
Septa Fan

[walt]

Walt,
I think that the PRR Liberty Limited was an independent, nonstop from Washington to Chicago in competition with the Capitol Limited. THe Liberty was discontinued in1957.
Thank you
Septa Fan

What route did it follow? Did it use the Baltimore, York, Harrisburg route, or some other route?

[Septa Fan]

It used the old Northern Central Route, reversing at Baltimore through York to Harrisburg, after that the PRR main Line to Chicago. I never understood why the PRR chose this odd routing. They had an electrified Route just a few miles up the line through Colombia and no reverse movement would have been necessary. Nonetheless, the B&O route was more direct and efficient. I think, however, that routing is one one factor in considering why the PRR lost to the B&O. I've heard that the onboard service on the B&O was always first class. I would be interested in discussing how that factored into the competitive equation.

[pennsy]

As far as the NEC goes, the story is that it was always possible to get a seat on the B & O, and virtually impossible to get a seat on the PRR. That alone tells the story of why the B & O trains quickly came to an end, and the PRR had to put on extra trains, or much longer trains.

[walt]

With the old Northern Central routing, Was-Chi would have been a service in which the B&O had a distinct competative advantage, since the B&O routing was much shorter and more direct. B&O devotees often decribed the much larger PRR as a "rapid transit" system inferring that it did not provide the kind of personal services on its trains that the B&O did. Except for it's premier name trains, like the Broadway, this was probably true to some extent. The B&O was always seen in Maryland as almost a "community" railroad and has certainly enjoyed a much more intense loyalty amoung Marylanders than the PRR, though more Marylanders obviously rode the PRR ( particularly along the NEC) than rode the B&O.

[Septa Fan]

I am too young,by just a few years, to remember the Royal Blue Line. But I do remember my family members living in Delaware who exclusively used the B&O to travel to Philly, even though our home was near the PRR main line. I think that you are on to something. PRR was, and had to be, a rapid transit, major carrier. B&O could only compete by providing something different: service, perhaps as Marylanders and Delawareans felt, community loyalty too. I understand that there was a great deal of resistance to PRR expansion south of the Mason Dixon Line. Lastly, this confrontational attitude carried over into Reading and CNJ territory. I guess that the PRR was the entity that everybody liked to hate, kinda like the Yankees.

[walt]

Though this is a B&O thread, I will just say this about the PRR--- as an entity, the PRR was not a very "friendly" corporation. Standard Railroad of the World, yes, but friendly, particularly to actual or potential competators, no. There is a mural on a building at WC Pike and Darby Rd. ( at LLenerch- the former site of the P&WCT (Philadelphia & West Chester Traction Co.)-Red Arrow car barn- and of a former crossing of the P&WCT with a PRR branch line) which depcits an actual "battle" between P&WCT construction crews and a PRR crew which operated a steam engine which was used to impede construction of the trolley crossing. And that "Battle of Llenerch" was not the only reported occurrance of this type involving the PRR. While the B&O may not have been happy with potential interurban competition, I am not aware of any such "battles" involving the B&O; and that railroad actually cooperated with the Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis ( WB&A) successor, the B&A, interurban by allowing it to use B&O trackage to enter Baltimore's Camden Station.

[hutton_switch]

Septa Fan,

I am now only able to reply to your post due to some odd quirk going on with my computer at home; I could not reply until now, at work, and I guess it might have something to do with the firewall on my home computer.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned thus far, two important books on B&O's battle with the Pennsy for passenger service. A lot of your questions and impressions regarding this subject can be answered by first purchasing Herb Harwood's Royal Blue Line, which will obviously address the subject of B&O vs. Pennsy on the Northeast Corridor.

A second book, Baltimore and Ohio's Capitol Limited and National Limited, by Joe Welsh (just out, by the way) addresses B&O vs. the Pennsy on the Washington - Chicago route in its last chapter. Other routings on how the B&O did against other roads (particularly the NYC) for passenger service will give you a good perspective. You'll see that the B&O fared well, service-wise, even if it lost money in the long run.

Both books are available from the B&O RR Historical Society's Company Store, and can be obtained by clicking on the URL for the Society in my signature below.

[BaltOhio]

I'm late to this, too, so I'll probably repeat bits of what's already been said. But basically, the B&O had a competitive advantage (and usually superior service) between Washington/Baltimore and most Midwestern points (Chicago, Pittsburgh, Akron, Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati, Louisville, St. Louis) and from Cincinnati to Detroit and St. Louis. Washington-NY was never very competitive except during the period when B&O used Penn Station -- it was probably kept more for freight customer relationships and corporate pride more than anything else.

[pennsy]

The competition between PRR and B & O was notorious. One up manship to the extreme. In Pennsy Power, I & II, the infamous "race" between B & O and PRR on the NEC is well documented. PRR was going for speed and the shortest time schedule from DC to NYC. This pitted a beautiful B & O steamer against a new GG-1. No competition, the electric leaned into the load, more cars than the competitor, and just walked away from the B & O train. Left her in the GG-1's dust. But the food was better on the B & O. So in those days, the leisure traveler took B & O, and the businessman, on a tight schedule, took PRR. I rode the Congressional many times. Its average speed along the corridor was approaching 80 mph. And that includes stops, such as Philadelphia.

[kevikens]

My father on occasion had to travel from Philly on business in the Northeast in the 1940's and 1950's and he made it a point NEVER to use the Pennsy if he could possibly use the B&O for any part of the trip. I don't know how he managed it but many of his trips were into Central NY State and somehow he managed to start the trip out of Philly's Wayne Junction which had some kind of B&O connection. Maybe it had something to do with the Royal Blue running a block away from our house in the Lawndale section of the city but whatever it was he loved riding that railroad. Could you actually get to Upstate NY on the B&O ?

[BaltOhio]

Could you actually get to Upstate NY on the B&O ?

With difficulty, and not without changing trains somewhere.

One way would be to take B&O to Pittsburgh, then change to a local from Pittsburgh to Buffalo or Rochester over B&O's ex-BR&P lines. Accommodations were good as far as Pittsburgh, but after that you needed to be a hard-core B&O fan, and it was a long trip.

A better way would be to simply take the B&O (or Reading) to Jersey City and thence NYC to almost anywhere in upstate NY. Good accommodations and service all the way. Connecting B&O buses took you from Jersey City right to Grand Central.

In any event, B&O directly served only Buffalo and Rochester and, as mentioned, only out of Pittsburgh or points west of there. Otherwise, any upstate NY passengers would need to change to the NYC, Erie, LV, or DL&W to get to wherever they were headed.

[hutton_switch]

Could you actually get to Upstate NY on the B&O ?

Yes, but not from Philly -- to get to upstate NY on the B&O, you had to first travel to Pittsburgh and go north on what was known during B&O days, as the Niagara Division, to Buffalo or Rochester. Before B&O acquired this trackage in the early 1930's, it was the Buffalo, Rochester, and Pittsburgh Railroad.

There is a really good color DVD of the last days of steam passenger service on the Niagara Division of the B&O, called "The Vanishing American". If you're interested, it can be obtained from the Rochester Chapter of the NRHS for $19.95.