Miami Metrorail (MDTA) cars up for scrapping

[DutchRailnut]

Miami Metrorail (MDTA) is advertizing in railway age for decommisioning and disposal of 136 Transit Heavy rail Vehicles.
Those are the cars built by Budd in or around 1983 I believe.
www.miamidade.gov/dpm

[BuddSilverliner269]

Huh, I wonder what they plan to replace these cars? I havent heard of any project to replace them. Maybe the economy is so bad that they are doing away with the entire Metro system? OK, Im not really serious with that. Anyone else hear this?

[Noel Weaver]

Miami Metrorail (MDTA) is advertizing in railway age for decommisioning and disposal of 136 Transit Heavy rail Vehicles.
Those are the cars built by Budd in or around 1983 I believe.
http://www.miamidade.gov/dpm

I browsed through the link provided above and did not find anything pertaining to the above topic. I doubt if there is
anything to this. There has been nothing in the local papers or on local news either.
Noel Weaver

[DutchRailnut]

Noel Ill send you the Advertisement, It caucht my attention because I never saw anything on buying new cars.

[atsf sp]

There has been an ad for this in the last two Railway Age issues. It includes 136 cars. respond deadline is March 13, 2009. They are looking to scrap these cars.

[Kurt-Trirail]

Nothing on the MD website. While I don't particularly doubt the claim, I'd like to see the official source myself.

-Kurt

[atsf sp]

Wikipedia, though I don't know if we could trust it, says they were planning a purchase of new cars in 2002.

[Noel Weaver]

The bid appeared in a Railway Age Magazine and it was forwarded to me. To my knowledge no new cars have been ordered
and they do not have the funds for any new cars either. I have no idea why this appears and I think it has no substance at
this time.
Noel Weaver

[Kurt-Trirail]

The bid appeared in a Railway Age Magazine and it was forwarded to me. To my knowledge no new cars have been ordered
and they do not have the funds for any new cars either. I have no idea why this appears and I think it has no substance at
this time.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Noel - sounds more as if its a fishing expedition on the part of MDTA to see how much they can get for these things, scrap value.

That said, here is the clipping from the original ad from DutchRailnut:



-Kurt

[goodnightjohnwayne]

The bid appeared in a Railway Age Magazine and it was forwarded to me. To my knowledge no new cars have been ordered
and they do not have the funds for any new cars either. I have no idea why this appears and I think it has no substance at
this time.
Noel Weaver

Miami's Metrorail has always been a very marginal system, so much so that it probably shouldn't have been built to begin with.

I haven't seen any great impetus for the renewal of Metrorail's current rolling stock, and given the fiscal woes facing Florida, I can't imagine that the taxpayers have any great enthusiasm for the subsidization of ongoing operations, let alone massive capital spending to renew the fleet. When planning for the grandiose and unrealistic Orange Line halted early this year, it was a sign that the future of mass transit in Miami was far from assured, even in this era of a massive federal passenger rail spending.

Right now, Florida is facing a fiscal cataclysm, while at the same time facing tremendous underfunding in education and healthcare, with mass transit being very low on the list of priorities. In the end, state and county governments have to fund Medicaid, and there are standing court orders regarding the funding of public education. Given the circumstances, the best case scenario for Metrorail (and Tri-Rail) would be the continued subsidization of operations and a worst case scenario would be the cessation of all service and the disposal of all rolling stock.

I would take this article seriously, even if the disposal of all rolling stock without replacement seems altogether unlikely, at least from the perspective of the now lost prosperity of recent decades.

[Kurt-Trirail]

Miami's Metrorail has always been a very marginal system, so much so that it probably shouldn't have been built to begin with.

The results were marginal. Had the routing of the system through the city been different, it might have made sense.

For that matter, the 72' cars were a foolish idea as well - a shorter car with a tighter minimum cornering radius would make far more sense for areas that aren't conducive for the larger cars.

-Kurt

P.S.: What idiot came up with the extension that yielded the Palmetto station? A couple million poured into an extension that goes farther then nowhere. Go figure. I don't see myself using Metrorail to get to U-Pick Auto Parts.

[Noel Weaver]

I used Metro-Rail and it worked fine for me yesterday. The cars were clean, the seats decent, the AC working and we had
no problems of any kind in either direction. I do think the line twists and turns more than necessary on the north section
but the south section is pretty straight and goes through a better area as well.
There were plenty of people riding as well in both directions.
As for smaller cars, they still need the same technology and would cost much more for the same seating capacity as they
would have needed to order a much higher number of cars.
It is the only rapid transit system in Florida that is any good and I do not think we should be complaining about it on here
or anywhere else. Biggest problem as I see it is that we do not have enough of it for this heavily populated area.
As for the reason for bids on these cars for scrap, I think somebody in the management wants to get an estimate of the
value of this equipment and this is one way to get it. They are not going anywhere, that's for sure.
Noel Weaver

[goodnightjohnwayne]

I used Metro-Rail and it worked fine for me yesterday. The cars were clean, the seats decent, the AC working and we had
no problems of any kind in either direction. I do think the line twists and turns more than necessary on the north section
but the south section is pretty straight and goes through a better area as well.
There were plenty of people riding as well in both directions.

The bottom line is that Metrorail was built along a very peculiar route, which cleverly excluded major destinations. In all of the times I've been to Miami, I've never had occasion to use Metrorail (or Tri-Rail, or the laughable Metromover).

I'm glad to hear that the system is maintained, but it was highly, perhaps even fatally, flawed in conception and probably should never have been built, or should have been built on a far more optimal, better focused route, on a more realistic scale. I blame misguided 1970s federal mass transit policies that funded a number of frivolous and wasteful projects and excluded a number of vital projects in well established systems. Miami wasn't the only city to build a "white elephant" with federal funds.

It is the only rapid transit system in Florida that is any good and I do not think we should be complaining about it on here
or anywhere else.

I'm not complaining, only addressing the background issues that might have lead to this advertisement, seeking bids for the disposal of all Metrorail rolling stock.

Biggest problem as I see it is that we do not have enough of it for this heavily populated area.

The problem is that the population is arranged around highway based transportation, and that the current system, despite its impressive mileage and scale, is something of "white elephant." The issue of extending Metrorail seems to be truly dead, at last, and rightly so. The Orange Line didn't really fix the problems with the system, but added even more.

As for the reason for bids on these cars for scrap, I think somebody in the management wants to get an estimate of the
value of this equipment and this is one way to get it. They are not going anywhere, that's for sure.
Noel Weaver

There isn't any indication of a replacement order, and it is clear that the scrap value of the current 1983 vintage fleet would not substantially defray the cost of new procurement.

Baltimore Metro is the only other user of this equipment, and even that system only uses 54 out of 100 available cars during peak rush hour volumes, so it's clear there's no market for the 136 Metrorail cars, at least not in an operable or even intact condition. I think you can read the notice quite literally when it comes to the phrase "decommissioning and disposal."

I still think the shutdown of Metrorail and scrapping of all rolling stocks seems unlikely, but it is no longer inconceivable, considering the fiscal crisis. Eliminating a costly and embarrassing white elephant of a transit system might be a more palatable political alternative than cuts to education and healthcare.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Miami's Metrorail has always been a very marginal system, so much so that it probably shouldn't have been built to begin with.

The results were marginal. Had the routing of the system through the city been different, it might have made sense.

I can only assume that there were local political considerings, and perhaps anticipated patterns of development and population growth didn't materialize.

For that matter, the 72' cars were a foolish idea as well - a shorter car with a tighter minimum cornering radius would make far more sense for areas that aren't conducive for the larger cars.

Keep in mind that the earliest mass transit systems were elevated railways that followed existing 19th century street grids, hence the tighter radius curves and short cars. Some of the earliest subways were built to utilize the same cars, which is why these lines still utilize shorter than optimal cars today.

I'm inclined to say that the planner of the 1970s were thinking in terms of efficiency, and Budd in particular was hoping to design a standard car type to be used on a number of newly built systems.

P.S.: What idiot came up with the extension that yielded the Palmetto station? A couple million poured into an extension that goes farther then nowhere. Go figure. I don't see myself using Metrorail to get to U-Pick Auto Parts.

This doesn't surprise me. In all the time I've spent in Miami over the years, I've never been able to find a destination that was accessible from Metrorail, although I never knew about "U-Pick Auto Parts," which apparently is the "largest automobile parts supermarket" in South Florida. With an admission charge of only $1.00, this might be one of the foremost attractions on Metrorail.

[Bay Head Local]

...I came across this thread and found it to be quite interesting, as a student at UMiami (comming from NY), I personally think its quite rediculous to say the Metrorail System should have never been built....with that being said, the Metrorail system in my eyes has been a great success, 67,000 people a day is really good for a 22-station system and its the prime reason why I chose to attend the school in the 1st place. While I do feel that the northern section (North of Gov't Center) could have been a bit more thought out and better planned to serve a larger market and more residential areas (North Miami, Aventura, 79th Street etc.) Overall the Metrorail has been a success and NEEDED to be built. It honestly is sad to see that all the other planned extensions haven't gone anywhere and probably never will. The Metrorail extension fiasco is similar to the MTA's 2nd Ave subway project, except thats been on NY's to-do list for 70 years (originally conceived in 1929). I do feel though that the Metrorail coupled along with Tri-Rail is one of the best things that happened to Miami, it really transformed some suburban communities into "Commuter Towns" and honestly played a key role into why I personally came down to FL in the 1st place.So the Metrorail will probably NEVER close, but as far as new extensions go, hopefully we will see them....one day. NYC subway and LIRR the largest subway and commuter rail systems in the country can't even get their projects done and those(the projects) are older than the Metrorail itself, so Miami certainly isn't the only one going having a hard time. Its just that the U.S. doesn't seem to care about rapid transit as much as the rest of the world, which is why things like this always get pushed to the bottom of the list.