• Swampoodle connection

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

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  by BuddSilverliner269
 
Mike, signal speeds don't trump the maximum authorized speed for a segment of track. The track speed for that curve is 15mph and that curve extends into thr interlocking. Once the train clears that curve then yes you can pick the speed up to 30.
Matt, you're predicting doom and gloom for CHW trains using 16th street junction with backups and I say that's an absurd notion because as I stated there are other level crossing that handle traffic with no problems. 16th street use to handle way more diverting moves then it does today when the RDG ran trains to Reading, Pottsville etc plus the many freight moves daily. Would there be delays? Sure its the railroad. You should see the train service in chicago with the passenger and freight trains all with level crossings and the trains move.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Suburban Station wrote:phn and north broad are 690 tbd's together putting it between downingtown and clifton-aldan
http://septa.org/reports/pdf/asp11.pdf
How do you get 690 boards? North Philadelphia is 149 in that report and North Broad is 176. Both are well above the danger zone though. The key thing is that at both stations, nearly all the ridership is reverse-commute.
nonetheless, as matt SHOULD know, it's not terrible relevant. few trains stop there....R5 frequency is minimal.
No, the context I was speaking of there was transitizing the Chestnut Hill lines with transfers to the subway. I'm OK with limited peak-direction service at those two stops as long as the reverse peak trains are serving them well, which they mostly are. And I'll gladly take the proposition that the net public benefit of serving a reverse-commute rider is greater than that of serving a peak direction rider.
it's time to start investing in the future with stops there... particularly on city routes like the che and chw...which may not be the rrd's concern since its generally more concerned with the suburbs (as is DVARP).
That's not true at all. We're the ones defending city riders on the RRD by doing things like calling out SEPTA on fare policies that particularly hurt those riders. That said though, it's hard to justify delaying a trainload of 500 peak riders to pick up one more at North Broad, especially considering it then complicates the dispatchers' job by requiring that train to be on 1 track or 4 track every day. And considering the relative cost recovery rates of the different lines, it's hard to fault SEPTA's commitment to those lines (Cynwyd is another story though).
think north broad with half hourly off peask manayunk-norristown service as well as half hour che service (and in this case chw). the other train that should stop there that doesn't is fox chase.
Where's the market there? Fox Chase and Hill East are the two lowest lines in reverse commute travel, while inbound boards at North Broad are just 26 a day.
  by jmac37
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote: Uh, guys? Do you know how many passengers presently use the North Philadelphia stop with nearby subway connection? Hint--even a Wharton student can count that high!
I know it's not a make or break amount of boardings at North Broad and North Philadelphia, but I'm looking at 1.) a hypothetical, no money is going to be coming forth for this anytime soon and 2.) looking to keep the amount of stops in the North Philly/North Broad St area about the same. I'm sure you're going to lose people on the 3 block difference but the that area should, I would think, be an eventual target for redevelopment because of the access points to and from Center City, making that North Philadelphia (Amtrak)-North Philadelphia (Subway Station)-North Broad Street (SEPTA) a lot more relevant. I thought I read some where recently that developers were already beginning to move up Broad Street.

Just my line of thinking. While we are all proud of you Wharton grads for being able to count with fingers, we Drexel grads can also count on our fingers and we try to look at things in a more positive light ;)
  by Bill R.
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote:
BuddSilverliner269 wrote:It would be no different then the conflicting moves that take place daily up top on Amtrak or even currently at 16th street Wayne, Jenkin or Carmel...
Except for how many there are.
My point exactly. Thank you, Matt.

There is no direct physical limitation caused by the design of the interlocking, but the number of SB moves through the area (CHE, Fox Chase, Lansdale/Doylestown, Warminster and West Trenton) create tight time slots for NB movements toward Norristown and a rerouted CHW.

With the CHW bridge over the ex-Reading trunk in need of replacement, I 2nd the idea that the Swampoodle Connection should be considered as an alternative project.

A knowledgable observer in the industry has suggested building a connection from the NB ex-reading trunk (Track 1?) from just north of the NEC bridge to the CHW line east of the CHW bridge over the trunk. I'm not sure if the elevation change can be feasibly compensated for, but the concept would provide a grade-seperated pathway through the area.
  by Suburban Station
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote: How do you get 690 boards? North Philadelphia is 149 in that report and North Broad is 176. Both are well above the danger zone though. The key thing is that at both stations, nearly all the ridership is reverse-commute.
that's total boards and deboards. the times that I use the stop (the few times when one of the few stops there meets my schedule-it's easily the fastest way to the northern suburbs) I'll often opt for Suburban Station on the way back if it's late at night...or the train I catch INTO the city doesn't stop there.
Matthew Mitchell wrote: No, the context I was speaking of there was transitizing the Chestnut Hill lines with transfers to the subway. I'm OK with limited peak-direction service at those two stops as long as the reverse peak trains are serving them well, which they mostly are. And I'll gladly take the proposition that the net public benefit of serving a reverse-commute rider is greater than that of serving a peak direction rider.
obviously serving reverse commuters there off peak is the most important reason to stop mainline trains there. OTOH, it would be foolish to not stop off peak trains there simply because there are no commuters. transfers from the subway to che are quicker and faster than any other way of getting from the broad st corridor to NW Philly. It might be the same for CHW if the swampoodle jct were built.
dited to add:
transitizing: if by that you mean light rail service with connections to the subway, which is what I'd think you meant, I'd assum that ideally the route would tunnel under the nec and provide a below grade connection...or perhaps more realistically, run on the surface for the "last mile" to get to broad street. in either case, current ridership numbers would not be a good indicator of demand. It seems likely some ridership from other bus routes (23, HXH, etc) would transfer to this equally cheap, much faster ride to the subway.
Matthew Mitchell wrote: That's not true at all. We're the ones defending city riders on the RRD by doing things like calling out SEPTA on fare policies that particularly hurt those riders.
the city routes like che and chw need to be part of the city division. in some ways, on weekends, they already are since transpasses work...but none of them stop there and frequency of lansdale trains is atrocious at that stop, frequency of manayunk-norristown lines is piss poor as well.
Matthew Mitchell wrote: That said though, it's hard to justify delaying a trainload of 500 peak riders to pick up one more at North Broad, especially considering it then complicates the dispatchers' job by requiring that train to be on 1 track or 4 track every day. And considering the relative cost recovery rates of the different lines, it's hard to fault SEPTA's commitment to those lines (Cynwyd is another story though).
I don't think it's that hard to justify standardizing stopping policies on a couple routes. I understand not stopping inbound trains from the main line.
Matthew Mitchell wrote: Where's the market there? Fox Chase and Hill East are the two lowest lines in reverse commute travel, while inbound boards at North Broad are just 26 a day.
you're missing the point. it's not simply about reverse commute but about mobility. with better frequency off peak you know have a much faster way to use septa to get around the cit..that's where the market is. and as noted, city demographics are shifting fairly rapidly...rather than worrying about "where's the market" you should probably worry about how to tap into a growing market and begin to utilize one of the wasted assets on the system. the transfer is easy but fares on rrd and God awful stopping patterns at north broad make that difficult. as you noted, che doesn't have much of a reverse commute, so who are you inconveniencing by increasing mobility?
  by delvyrails
 
It strikes me that we could keep this thread going forever if we would open up for revision the entire area within a Frankford Junction-Zoo Junction-Queen Lane-Fern Rock boundary with its many interlockings and such.

Let no ideas be excluded, such as Reverse Swampoodle Connector, Midvale Connector (running along the north side of Berridge shop connecting Wayne with CHW), reassigning Connecting Railway tracks 1 and 2 to Amtrak and NJT and 3 and 4 to SEPTA.

It's probably the most track-intensive area outside the old Jersey meadows or downtown Chicago.

Scheme on!
  by DeltaV
 
delvyrails wrote:It strikes me that we could keep this thread going forever if we would open up for revision the entire area within a Frankford Junction-Zoo Junction-Queen Lane-Fern Rock boundary with its many interlockings and such.

Let no ideas be excluded, such as Reverse Swampoodle Connector, Midvale Connector (running along the north side of Berridge shop connecting Wayne with CHW), reassigning Connecting Railway tracks 1 and 2 to Amtrak and NJT and 3 and 4 to SEPTA.

It's probably the most track-intensive area outside the old Jersey meadows or downtown Chicago.

Scheme on!
Alrighty then...

Use that 'Midvale Connector' to connect Diesels from Newtown through 30th street lower to West Chester. Would there be enough room to submarine off an underpass from PRR track 0 to connect with the SEPTA main line? There already is a very old and decrepit looking line (according to google maps) in the west quadrant connecting the Norristown/Septa main to the CHW inbound tracks which, if combined with a short section of subway, could eliminate the need for the CHW N. Philly stop/mess.

Get Amtrak interested and sell it as a way for them to use the old RDG path to NYC (through West Trenton) to bypass the PRR main in case of emergency.
  by Suburban Station
 
it would be more useful for amtrak to run from the nec through center city via the reading main
  by DeltaV
 
Suburban Station wrote:it would be more useful for amtrak to run from the nec through center city via the reading main
Except that SEPTA doesn't want to let diesels through the tunnel. The reading line past West Trenton isn't electrified either, so unless NJT does it (I know they were considering expanding service down that line, but were they going to do it with diesel or electric?), diesel would be required.
  by Suburban Station
 
DeltaV wrote:
Suburban Station wrote:it would be more useful for amtrak to run from the nec through center city via the reading main
Except that SEPTA doesn't want to let diesels through the tunnel. The reading line past West Trenton isn't electrified either, so unless NJT does it (I know they were considering expanding service down that line, but were they going to do it with diesel or electric?), diesel would be required.
sorry, i meant through center city via the reading main to north philly, thence back onto the nec..no diesel, no west trenton (isn't there a branch off that line that connects to morris?)
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
DeltaV wrote:Use that 'Midvale Connector' to connect Diesels from Newtown through 30th street lower to West Chester. Would there be enough room to submarine off an underpass from PRR track 0 to connect with the SEPTA main line?
[groan]

I'm outta here.
  by rbreslow
 
Hmmm, I've been looking on google maps and have seen that they could maybe move allagney (Sorry for the bad spelling here) up a little further and have that be the replacement, plus it could me a good transfer point for people going or coming from norristown.
  by glennk419
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote:
DeltaV wrote:Use that 'Midvale Connector' to connect Diesels from Newtown through 30th street lower to West Chester. Would there be enough room to submarine off an underpass from PRR track 0 to connect with the SEPTA main line?
[groan]

I'm outta here.
Thank you, Dr. Mitchell. I thought I was the only one getting a headache.
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