• Swampoodle connection

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

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  by BuddSilverliner269
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:One possible solution is to simply build the connection and let trains run both ways. Just because CHW trains could be routed via the reading doesn't mean they can't also go via North Philly. You just build the connection with an extra interlocking. With this option SEPTA could also institute loop service.

The problem with the signaling is that when the interlocking was re-signaled Amtrak left the two #10 slow speed turnouts in place between tracks 1 and 2 and, 3 and 4. Trains heading off the branch get a medium speed route via the old 5 track.
Regardless of the 30 mph (medium clear)signal you get at Lehigh to go west off the branch, you can still only do 15mph because of the curve.The curve extends into the interlocking.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Matt what Im saying is, if Wayne, Jenkin and Carmel can handle these conflicting moves then adding the CHW service thru 16th street isnt going to gum up the works as everyones worst nightmares might predict.
I know the Amtrak route isn't much better, but there are more trains as you keep going down the line. Norristown is considerably busier than Hill East (moves at Wayne). I haven't ever tried to analyze the traffic there (John Pawson, have you done it?), but you need to allow for about 19 trains per hour on the trunk (6 Lansdale/Doylestown/Pennridge, 4 Warminster/Glenside, 4 West Trenton, 3 Fox Chase, 2 CHE), plus some number of PRR-side moves to/from Roberts, and 4 or maybe 6 trains per hour to Norristown (ridership is growing). You can probably make it work when all the trains are running on time, but there's little leeway when something's out of its assigned slot.

That said, now is the right time to think about Swampoodle, since building it means you won't need to rebuild Bridge 0.35.
  by Suburban Station
 
Clearfield wrote: Silverliner is correct (as usual). Taking the CHW off of the NEC would put SEPTA in complete control of the line. It would also eliminate the Amtrak propulsion charges. The only station not served by the change would be North Philadelphia which is lightly patronized now. The line would pick up Temple. The CHW bridge over the Reading Main Line is slated for replacement anyway.
they'd also pick up their own propulsion charges. It's the access fee where they'd save money. Of course, that brings up a bigger point, is a flat access fee the right way to pay Amtrak? I mean, isn't a rush hour train more expensive to add than sunday evening? wouldn't a flat fee discourage more frequencies off peak? it's a question for all shared territory. As for stops, It's a more seamless transfer from north broad to north philly (subway) than it is from north philly given the way north philly is now set up and operates.
Matthew Mitchell wrote: I know the Amtrak route isn't much better, but there are more trains as you keep going down the line. Norristown is considerably busier than Hill East (moves at Wayne). I haven't ever tried to analyze the traffic there (John Pawson, have you done it?), but you need to allow for about 19 trains per hour on the trunk (6 Lansdale/Doylestown/Pennridge, 4 Warminster/Glenside, 4 West Trenton, 3 Fox Chase, 2 CHE), plus some number of PRR-side moves to/from Roberts, and 4 or maybe 6 trains per hour to Norristown (ridership is growing). You can probably make it work when all the trains are running on time, but there's little leeway when something's out of its assigned slot.

That said, now is the right time to think about Swampoodle, since building it means you won't need to rebuild Bridge 0.35.
I also think some consideration should be given the the light rail suggestion which woudl remove the service entirely from the rrd and its higher cost structure (even if it would introduce a transfer). the tradeoff would be frequency.
  by Jersey_Mike
 
Regardless of the 30 mph (medium clear)signal you get at Lehigh to go west off the branch, you can still only do 15mph because of the curve.The curve extends into the interlocking.
Given the length of the interlocking it would be an improvement to be able to continue through the interlocking at Medium speed and then slow for the curve as you reach it. Some judicious use of high speed turnouts on the connecting railroad would allow main line trains to get out of the way without slowing for a diverging route. For example Amtrak trains head through Mantua and Girard straight on #1 and then use an HST at Clearfield to get over to #2. R8's could come straight out on #2 to North Philly and avoid the conflict. I know some of these moves are made now, but with an HST here or there they would cause less delay and Amtrak dispatchers wouldn't be scared to hit an Amtrak train on signals.

Seriously tho, the CH Corridor is seriously spoiled with 2 commuter lines that are far closer together than any others. SEPTA should invest funds to expand service, not tweak service to the best served section of the city.
  by jmac37
 
Ok so hypothetically the Swampoodle connection is funded and put in, do the CHW trains stop at North Broad as a replacement for North Philadelphia or do you just ditch the stop to save time? Would the CHW trains just stop at 30th and go back to CHW or would they be incorporated into another line on the "Pennsy" side? Also, I don't know if I missed it somewhere else on here, but how would you run this line as light rail?
  by SEPTAR2Newark
 
Another thing that could be done, IF a full interlock was put in place would be to bring Norristown trains into 30th which in the event something were to happen farther down the main line around Temple U, could prove useful.
  by rbreslow
 
Hmmm, I've been looking on google maps and have seen that they could maybe move allagney (Sorry for the bad spelling here) up a little further and have that be the replacement, plus it could me a good transfer point for people going or coming from norristown.
  by Suburban Station
 
jmac37 wrote:Ok so hypothetically the Swampoodle connection is funded and put in, do the CHW trains stop at North Broad as a replacement for North Philadelphia or do you just ditch the stop to save time? Would the CHW trains just stop at 30th and go back to CHW or would they be incorporated into another line on the "Pennsy" side? Also, I don't know if I missed it somewhere else on here, but how would you run this line as light rail?
both the CHE and CHW should stop at north broad for connections to/from the subway and should run through to to a line that stops at u city
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Suburban Station wrote:both the CHE and CHW should stop at north broad for connections to/from the subway and should run through to to a line that stops at u city
Uh, guys? Do you know how many passengers presently use the North Philadelphia stop with nearby subway connection? Hint--even a Wharton student can count that high!
  by Suburban Station
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote: Uh, guys? Do you know how many passengers presently use the North Philadelphia stop with nearby subway connection? Hint--even a Wharton student can count that high!
hard to use it without trains stopping
  by nomis
 
North Philly 149b 213a
Only a few trains don't make the ninth Philly stop. Does somebody have numbers for amtrak's PHN side, I don't have a PDF saved on the iPad with those numbers.

Btw, north broad is 176 boardings and 152 alightings.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
nomis wrote:North Philly 149b 213a
About 90 percent of whom are going outbound to Trenton line destinations. Hill West ridership at North Philadelphia is about 12 boards/day.
  by DeltaV
 
SEPTAR2Newark wrote:Another thing that could be done, IF a full interlock was put in place would be to bring Norristown trains into 30th which in the event something were to happen farther down the main line around Temple U, could prove useful.
OR....
Diesels coming from Pottstown/Reading down the Norristown line could get to 30th lower without going through the tunnel. Swampoodle is probably much more likely to happen than re-tracking the Ivy Ridge line, or SEPTA allowing Diesel through the tunnel.

Heck, getting Amtrak to recognize Phila-Reading as an intercity route (ala the Keystone) is probably more likely through there than running over the former PRR line...
  by Suburban Station
 
nomis wrote:North Philly 149b 213a
Only a few trains don't make the ninth Philly stop. Does somebody have numbers for amtrak's PHN side, I don't have a PDF saved on the iPad with those numbers.

Btw, north broad is 176 boardings and 152 alightings.
phn and north broad are 690 tbd's together putting it between downingtown and clifton-aldan
http://septa.org/reports/pdf/asp11.pdf

nonetheless, as matt SHOULD know, it's not terrible relevant. few trains stop there....R5 frequency is minimal. I've used it to transfer to the norristown manayunk-line and would love to use it for CHE or CHW. I'm not a fan of the transfer to the north philly station as opposed to north broad which I feel safer doing. I'd wager that with better stopping the totals would be higher and with development along north broad showing signs of life, it's time to start investing in the future with stops there... particularly on city routes like the che and chw...which may not be the rrd's concern since it
s generally more concerned with the suburbs (as is DVARP). while overall population in the city was stagnant, population growth along the corridor between city along the broad st line (both north and south of center city) is both growing rapidly and changing dramatically in nature. the areas further north, bordering montco are in decline.

think north broad with half hourly off peask manayunk-norristown service as well as half hour che service (and in this case chw). the other train that should stop there that doesn't is fox chase.

delta v-if penndot wanted to run reading/pottsville as intercity service I'm sure Amtrak would be interested
  by DeltaV
 
Suburban Station wrote:
delta v-if penndot wanted to run reading/pottsville as intercity service I'm sure Amtrak would be interested
Even crazier thought: 'Connect' the Reading diesel line to a West Chester diesel line (I just read the new Wawa posts), through 30th street lower. Reading side would be local through to Norristown, express to 30th, express to Media or Wawa, then local to West Chester. Would certainly speed up the WC side (if the main complaint is that the ride from WC to 30th is too long).
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