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  • New free standing electronic console at station

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #1531454  by train2
 
I am an infrequent rider, however at some Septa station I have noticed a new free standing electronic console near the platform. It lacks any real info as to what it is, or at least I have noticed while walking by. I have not had time to test drive it yet. What am I seeing, ticket vending machine, parking payment etc?
 #1531456  by MACTRAXX
 
T2: What you describe is a parking lot machine. Which station did you notice these machines at?
Keep in mind that parking fees are charged at SEPTA RRD stations on weekdays only.
There is Free Parking Saturday and Sundays.

EXCEPTION: Parking lots at Regional Rail stations within the City of Philadelphia
operated by Philadelphia Parking Authority charge daily fees to park on weekends.
Examples: Fern Rock TC and Fox Chase...MACTRAXX
 #1532882  by train2
 
I think it was Neshaminy Falls station. I was staying with friends and they drove over to the station to go to a concert. But I also noticed the device on a NEC station a few months before. But my train arrived before I had a chance to investigate.
 #1532968  by ryan92084
 
The new ones that are just a small screen are for tapping in/out of the system with a key card. They are just starting to be trialed now. The much larger versions with a keypad and a credit card reader are for the new parking system and AFAIK none of these are active for that function yet. The parking versions are meant to be covered but most of the covers and replacement covers have been blown away.

Many of the stations should have a new hand out explaining things this month.
Last edited by ryan92084 on Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1532970  by rcthompson04
 
ryan92084 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:56 am The new ones that are just a small screen are for tapping in/out of the system with a key card. They are just starting to be trialed now. The much larger versions with a keypad and a credit card reader are for the new parking system and AFAIK none of these are active yet. The parking versions are meant to be covered but most of the covers and replacement covers have been blown away.

Many of the stations should have a new hand out explaining things this month.
The larger boxes with credit card readers can be used to tap-in and tap-out. There are some turned on at some stations for tapping only. I use one maybe 1-2 a week to tap out and it works based on my online KEY record.

This was communicated when the first Key trials started, but has not been communicated since. Parking functionality has not been activated.
 #1532973  by ryan92084
 
rcthompson04 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:44 am

The larger boxes with credit card readers can be used to tap-in and tap-out. There are some turned on at some stations for tapping only. I use one maybe 1-2 a week to tap out and it works based on my online KEY record.

This was communicated when the first Key trials started, but has not been communicated since. Parking functionality has not been activated.
Correct but that isn't their main function and right now they cause a fair amount of confusion (both for parking and purchasing tickets) which is why they are supposed to be covered but I'll edit my original statement to better reflect their status.
Being able to use the parking versions for tap in/out is mentioned in the new handout as well. I really need to grab one and see if there is anything else useful on there.
 #1533093  by train2
 
OK would you explain what Tap out and Tap in is exactly? I don't live in the city and don't commute often, usually a few times a year. I know people have been mentioning a key card, but I don't know what those look like. It is anything similar to the paper stock cards, it looked like a flimsy credit card, I got from a vending machine when I last used the MF line?

As for the key card is there any reason an infrequent user would ever need/want one? Any disadvantages to not using it, like higher fares? The only problem I run into is often, especially for an afternoon/evening trip, I find a lot of the ticket offices are not open.
 #1533099  by R3 Passenger
 
train2 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:18 pm OK would you explain what Tap out and Tap in is exactly?
Tap In-Tap Out is SEPTA's implementation of the Key Card on the RRD. The RRD fares are based on distance, unlike the CTD. So if you have a key card, you need to tap in at your origin station, and tap out at your destination station. If you do not do this, the maximum fare will be charged to your Key card.
train2 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:18 pm I don't live in the city and don't commute often, usually a few times a year. I know people have been mentioning a key card, but I don't know what those look like. It is anything similar to the paper stock cards, it looked like a flimsy credit card, I got from a vending machine when I last used the MF line?
The Key Card is basically a green debit card purchased from a Key machine. It is not flimsy, but has to be replaced every 3 years. The first batch started being replaced back in November.
train2 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:18 pm As for the key card is there any reason an infrequent user would ever need/want one? Any disadvantages to not using it, like higher fares? The only problem I run into is often, especially for an afternoon/evening trip, I find a lot of the ticket offices are not open.
In theory, there is no reason why an infrequent rider should need/want one. Advantages of using the key card are getting the lowest available fare, and registered cards get the advantage of balance protection and online fare purchase (like 10 ride Independence Passes!). Key cards will also eventually be able to pay for parking too.

Of course, cash is not going away, and the Key system will eventually* be able to accept Apple Pay/Google Pay and standard credit cards. But those will always be charged the sucker fare.

It is a poor system not designed for the regular 9-5 commuter. Infrequent riders should not be dissuaded by the barriers of confusion (and turnstiles) that SEPTA has baked into this system. Yet, here it is.

If you are planning to ride a few times a year, my advice is to just bite the bullet and get it anyway. It isn't going anywhere and SEPTA probably won't be letting go of its nickel and dime turnstile mentality any time soon.

(*I'll believe promised features when I see them. I wouldn't hold my breath.)
 #1533108  by JeffK
 
To add a couple of extra bits to R3's excellent guide:

If you do get a Key card, the initial price includes a $4.95 charge. However if you register the card within 30 days that amount is credited back to your card balance and can be used to pay for further trips.

If you decide to pay cash, SEPTA imposes a variable surcharge on all onboard payments. On the transit side (bus / subway / trolley) it’s 50¢ plus there are no transfer privileges. On the commuter rail system things are more complicated: The surcharge ranges from $1.25 to $1.75 depending on the station where you board. But IF your trip is inbound to Center City and returning on the same day, you can get a credit for the surcharge by not buying the return ticket at the same time. Instead, hang on to your inbound ticket and present it to a Center City ticket office when you buy the return fare. They’re supposed to give you a credit for the inbound surcharge against the price of your return ticket.

They also may want to know the names of all firstborn children and get a sample of your dog's DNA... 🥴

I’ve used transit systems in 16 cities from Stockholm to Melbourne. NONE came anywhere near SEPTA's overt hostility to infrequent riders.
 #1533129  by ryan92084
 
JeffK wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:44 pm To add a couple of extra bits to R3's excellent guide:

If you do get a Key card, the initial price includes a $4.95 charge. However if you register the card within 30 days that amount is credited back to your card balance and can be used to pay for further trips.

If you decide to pay cash, SEPTA imposes a variable surcharge on all onboard payments. On the transit side (bus / subway / trolley) it’s 50¢ plus there are no transfer privileges. On the commuter rail system things are more complicated: The surcharge ranges from $1.25 to $1.75 depending on the station where you board. But IF your trip is inbound to Center City and returning on the same day, you can get a credit for the surcharge by not buying the return ticket at the same time. Instead, hang on to your inbound ticket and present it to a Center City ticket office when you buy the return fare. They’re supposed to give you a credit for the inbound surcharge against the price of your return ticket.

They also may want to know the names of all firstborn children and get a sample of your dog's DNA... 🥴

I’ve used transit systems in 16 cities from Stockholm to Melbourne. NONE came anywhere near SEPTA's overt hostility to infrequent riders.
In response to the bolded the Fare Credit program was canceled sometime in September (the same time they stopped selling Independence passes on the train). There was no public notice that I'm aware of and many of the agents still do not know so you can still get away with it a lot of the time but slowly the information is spreading.
There is an exception to this with Family Independence passes which they started doing on the train again with a fare credit to be redeemed in a center city station only.
 #1533143  by JeffK
 
Ryan: Thank you for the correction. I hadn't seen anything about the change on SEPTA's website, at least at a high level absent diving multiple pages deep.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that they'd want to obfuscate yet another stealth increase, akin to how they redefined the standard RRD ticket price as "discounted" and tried to make the on-board surcharged price appear to be the new norm.
 #1533179  by JeffK
 
rcthompson04 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:52 pm I am not as negative on Key as some are here, but I wouldn’t recommend it for an occasional Regional Rail user yet unless you are a Zone 4 user and can use an Independence Pass on the Key card.
I freely admit to being more than a bit negative. The Key has elements of every "goose food" IT project I've had the misfortune to be caught in. SEPTA committed multiple, fundamental blunders of the kind you're (supposedly) taught to avoid in R&D and project management studies. Trying hard not to write a monograph here :-) ...

● They fell into the twin tar pits of "rebuild in kind" and "not invented here", mindsets that are hardly unique to SEPTA by any means but that have hobbled them over the decades (See: RailWorks, SVM)
● They focused more on building the Key itself than on building the Key to achieve a goal. (See: the development of the knitting machine*)

The resulting haggis has ended up keeping legacy features that should have been modified or scrapped (e.g. transfers, differential fares within the CBD) while eliminating core functionality that many riders relied on (e.g. shareability, matching purchases to needs). Intentionally or not, it's also tilted the system far more in favor of their "ideal" commuter while being worse for occasional riders and punitively expensive for many lower-income riders (See: Pew study)

As far as the RRD goes, my dispute with the onboard surcharge isn't the idea itself but its implementation. An onboard disincentive is common across commuter and national railroads as a way to limit the use of cash. My gripe is that SEPTA puts impediments in the path of commuters who want to avoid the surcharge, like limited station hours, nearly-nonexistent TVMs, and opaque if not misleading information. When you consider that the surcharge brings in an estimated (very roughly) couple of million extra each year versus everyone having access to the standard fare, it's hard to escape the suspicion that the roadblocks are intentional.

* Really. It was a case study in a long-ago Operations Research course. Still applicable to modern r&d.
Last edited by JeffK on Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1533214  by 93r8g7
 
100 % wrong in the case of "supposed to eliminate legacy" in that every IT project I worked on is taught to allow for choice rather thn force compliance, and Key forces compliance. A well designed fare system is like that of NJT. If one wishes to use some NFC technology, a reader (which have about 60% reliability) can be added to buses and fare machines, for those that choose to use it. Abovementioned so-called "legacy" products allowed for an individual to choose the method they wish to pay, which suits them. As such, Trans, Trailpasses and eliminating transfers even in the case of emergencies! are poor moves, particularly without machines at every station. Further adding salt to the wound - requiring Key to use the NHSL on both ends. All of these are massive blunders.
 #1533215  by JeffK
 
93r8g7 wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:58 am 100 % wrong in the case of "supposed to eliminate legacy" in that every IT project I worked on is taught to allow for choice rather thn force compliance, and Key forces compliance. A well designed fare system is like that of NJT. If one wishes to use some NFC technology, a reader (which have about 60% reliability) can be added to buses and fare machines, for those that choose to use it. Abovementioned so-called "legacy" products allowed for an individual to choose the method they wish to pay, which suits them. As such, Trans, Trailpasses and eliminating transfers even in the case of emergencies! are poor moves, particularly without machines at every station. ... All of these are massive blunders.
The Key's development and rollout make it seem SEPTA was using Dilbert as a project guide.
Further adding salt to the wound - requiring Key to use the NHSL on both ends.
It's a symptom of their obsession with fare leakage. Spend dollars to save dimes, while inconveniencing the riders.