SEPTA expansion suggestion

[rdgrailfan]

picked this up on "train orders board"
https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/br ... 1912190023

Reference to ownership of certain lines and using SEPTA as a contract carrier out to western PA.

[NorthPennLimited]

SEPTA seems to have enough on their plate trying to run a short line sized regional rail system.

They should put this service out to bid and see what Virgin, Keolis, and Bombardier have to offer to PennDot.

With a $16 million operating subsidy, and $41 in annual rent from SEPTA, I could see the state making an offer to Norfolk Southern to manage the operation in exchange for cooperation to start service to Phoenixville, as well as helping foster and additional train to Pittsburgh.

Think of it as a quid pro quo for all the subsidies they received in the past from the state for infrastructure improvements, including their unused brand new intermodal yard in South Philadelphia’s Navy Yard

[rcthompson04]

The article has numerous fails in it starting with the statement that the National Passenger Raul Corporation does not own the Philadelphia to Harrisburg Main Line. A simple search of the property records indicates otherwise. The $26 million figure seems wrong as well. It doesn’t add up with what else I can find.

How would this be better for the rider? I suspect SEPTA operated Keystones would receive the same treatment SEPTA commuter trains receive from Amtrak now when there is an issue. Just imagine what happens when issues occur at NYP. Pennsylvania would have to buy a lot more equipment including locomotives and coaches with bathrooms. Right now the trains use equipment from the Amtrak Northeast Corridor pool. Then SEPTA would be completely at the mercy of Norfolk Southern west of Harrisburg while Amtrak has greater legal rights.

I am not a fan of Amtrak’s maintenance of the Main Line as I am on my second day of Amtrak related delays, but I think these issues could be solved by the state actually providing a modest increase in funds to improve a few trouble stops over time. The second daily Pittsburgh train is just a pipe dream.

[JeffK]

Ditto here. Asking SEPTA to operate a long-distance passenger line makes little (well, NO) sense. They're simply not set up for it in so many ways that turning the line over to them would probably bring it to an end in a few years rather than improving it. Far better to look into some kind of PPP to help fund it, maybe split infrastructure and operations as is done in some other countries, and bring in an operator who has experience in long-distance passenger service.

[Suburban Station]

meanwhile, Virginia is doing something meaningful to get more trains to richmond and norfolk but they are spending money to do it.

[nova08]

Think of it as a quid pro quo for all the subsidies they received in the past from the state for infrastructure improvements, including their unused brand new intermodal yard in South Philadelphia’s Navy Yard

Was there ever any infrastructure improvements down in South Philly for NS? I see NS has land and 5-10 tracks they use for interchanges. Is it the strip of concrete that the port has used to store autos? I've wondered about NS' land in South Philly considering that the Philaport has grown in volume. Though it appears NS is happy with Morrisville as their Philadelphia area terminal.

[rcthompson04]

meanwhile, Virginia is doing something meaningful to get more trains to richmond and norfolk but they are spending money to do it.

I don't think PennDOT needs to buy anything to improve the service. Working with Amtrak to improve the Main Line would improve what is an okay service to a better service. I think a few improvements would make a big difference:

(1) Replace the ancient catenary between Paoli and Zoo. - Amtrak appears to be moving on this from a budget perspective.
(2) Clean up the interlocking situations in West Philly and move Bryn Mawr interlocking to Villanova.
(3) Install whatever is needed to allow trains to operate on all the tracks in either direction.
(4) Make whatever changes are needed to fix the on again off again mess between Malvern and Thorndale.

If it requires another Philadelphia to Pittsburgh train to get the support, throw it in there.

[Suburban Station]

meanwhile, Virginia is doing something meaningful to get more trains to richmond and norfolk but they are spending money to do it.

I don't think PennDOT needs to buy anything to improve the service. Working with Amtrak to improve the Main Line would improve what is an okay service to a better service. I think a few improvements would make a big difference:

(1) Replace the ancient catenary between Paoli and Zoo. - Amtrak appears to be moving on this from a budget perspective.
(2) Clean up the interlocking situations in West Philly and move Bryn Mawr interlocking to Villanova.
(3) Install whatever is needed to allow trains to operate on all the tracks in either direction.
(4) Make whatever changes are needed to fix the on again off again mess between Malvern and Thorndale.

If it requires another Philadelphia to Pittsburgh train to get the support, throw it in there.

1) replace the interlocking and improve signals within Philadelphia
2) bidirectional signaling park to paoli. Third track put back to paoli, three tracks to frazer.
Necessary to improve operations. Penndot is in the lead for paoli since it requires them to replace a bridge. Not sure about the other two.
I would note that septa takes as long to get to doylestown as amtrak takes to get to lancaster despite the fact Lancaster is much further. I also suspect that forcing a transfer to NYC wont be beneficial.

[NorthPennLimited]

Another unforeseen cost to SEPTA assuming service to Harrisburg or Pittsburgh is bathrooms onboard the train. The PA state law requires bathrooms on trains but holds an exemption for:
-B units
-trains running less than 60 miles
-certain grandfathered switcher locomotives

[Suburban Station]

Another unforeseen cost to SEPTA assuming service to Harrisburg or Pittsburgh is bathrooms onboard the train. The PA state law requires bathrooms on trains but holds an exemption for:
-B units
-trains running less than 60 miles
-certain grandfathered switcher locomotives

Indeed. Levin is comparing apples and oranges. Septa stations are often closed if they have bathrooms at all, the trains dont have bathrooms, stations are never staffed (harrisburg, lancaster, and Philadelphia are staffed and have people available to help with luggage). Septa trains are far slower.
What is less clear is where the savings would come from. From lowering speeds and increasing trip time, from unstaffing stations, from offering fewer amenities? Removing the police presence from major stations? The one obvious area is that septa engineers make less money than amtrak engineers. If that's the case, then it might make sense to extend septa service west while dropping stations on the keystone in order to maximize through ridership while allowing septa to focus on local ridership.

[pateljones]

Pennsylvania needs also to find an operator for the commuter service to Scranton. NJTransit is building the tracks now and it’s train will terminate at Slateford Jct.

[rdgrailfan]

My ramblings regarding this subject.

Well never let good old Pennsylvania politics get in the way of Philadelphia politics!
I would bet that Mr. Levin's statement was really hard jab at SEPTA as the "Virginia" plan was being discussed in depth by PA legislative persons in general.
I would bet the Leslie Richards will run for Governor after the end of the present persons term. The need for a coordinated passenger rail expansion is heard a lot in the legislative circles, I think Richards will be at least listening .

The general feeling is that the city can keep the bus related transit and the high rail goes to Penndot with the intent of developing a better bang for the buck Contract carrier ...You bet!!! Who.....open point but SEPTA Rail has proven it is NOT an effective regional carrier beyond what it has today!
Missed Opportunities:
Trenton to Thorndale - The turnpike is going to expand, again from Bristol out to KOP, Rail extension is cheaper via the Trenton cutoff,Thorndale to KOP has great potential. SEPTA never approached the Turnpike about an alternative expansion plan to reduce am /pa traffic on the Pike.
Allentown/Bethlehem - enough said opportunity just going away
Reading to KOP / Philly - Wow ridership is in place, 422 expansion on the drawing boards, Rail again is a cheaper alternative.
Phil to Marc connection - OK talk it to death

[Suburban Station]

SEPTA seems to have enough on their plate trying to run a short line sized regional rail system.

They should put this service out to bid and see what Virgin, Keolis, and Bombardier have to offer to PennDot.

With a $16 million operating subsidy, and $41 in annual rent from SEPTA, I could see the state making an offer to Norfolk Southern to manage the operation in exchange for cooperation to start service to Phoenixville, as well as helping foster and additional train to Pittsburgh.

Think of it as a quid pro quo for all the subsidies they received in the past from the state for infrastructure improvements, including their unused brand new intermodal yard in South Philadelphia’s Navy Yard

I'm just about positive the 41 million dollar number is the total septa pays for all its routes including Trenton and Wilmington lines rather than specific to the Harrisburg line. I recall reading it back when they first signed the agreement, I believe it is roughly half and half operating and capital.

[WashingtonPark]

Pennsylvania needs also to find an operator for the commuter service to Scranton. NJTransit is building the tracks now and it’s train will terminate at Slateford Jct.

They've got about 50 years to work on that. They've been talking about service from Scranton since 1988.

[rcthompson04]

Would it be better to contract the Regional Rail side of the enterprise to Amtrak?