SEPTA NPT card will be "SEPTA Key"?

[rcthompson04]

Why are there no key units installed along the R5? I realize I ask this every 6 months or so but it still is patently absurd.

There are tap-in, tap-out units installed at every station. If you are meaning Key "Quik-Trip" machines, there is very limited deployment outside of Center City.

One last thing that's been bugging me for quite a while...What happens when has SEPTA a breach? This system is linked to your credit card...and shows where and when you tap in and tap out making a map of your habits over the course of the key cards life. Are there mechanisms in place ensuring minimizing damage when a breach happens?

Seeing the cards are issued by METABank, METABank would be ultimately responsible for a data breach impacting the payment information. If you are worried about a data breach for a SEPTA Key Card that much, you probably should be buying a Unibomber shack and moving off the grid.

[rcthompson04]

I used one of the ticket purchasing machines in Suburban last night as I did not buy a pass for November (only going to Center City 12 times all month) and did not use an Independence Pass as I was leaving late and had one spare one-way peak ticket.

Why aren't these machines being deployed everywhere and the ticket offices being closed? You could deploy one of these at every station and more at some of the busier stations. If you can use an ATM you can use the machines. It has to be cheaper to have 5 people maintaining the machines instead of having ticket offices.

[ryan92084]

Key is now sold at every ticket office in the system so acquiring tickets won't be any more difficult in the future (travel wallet) than it is currently. Once you have a key it can be refilled without the office being open so it ends up being easier (until your card expires) or just use the open payment when that is available. The validator pedestals have been installed at all stations for some time now as well as the still inactive key parking. I've seen some testing working on the parking ones so I suspect they'll activate soon.

The automatic kiosks are a huge pain for septa. I wouldn't be surprised if they go away rather than expand coverage with them. Same with the quick trips. "Open payment" being the main replacement.

I know that article says the regional rail travel wallet is expected by March but I am still hearing December/January time frame.

[MACTRAXX]

According to signs in Suburban Station, a "Tap out" trial is starting soon in Jefferson Station.

RCT: The "Friendly" Tap User Test is going to be conducted at just four
turnstiles in the A Section at Jefferson Station west nearest the ticket office sales windows.

This exit test began on 11/18 and is in effect between 6 AM and 8 PM on weekdays.
http://www.septa.org/key/updates/tap-user-testing.html

MACTRAXX

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone:

With today being the 20th of the month when new passes go on sale each month I found
that Jenkintown has December 2019 legacy passes on sale. From what I learned some
stations have ticket office machines installed to handle Key sales but are not in service or are currently being tested.

http://www.septa.org/key/updates/key-ou ... tions.html

The best bet to continue to purchase a legacy pass is to note which stations sell parking
permits which get combined with legacy monthly passes or to contact your station to find
out the pass types that are being sold. This is likely to change from month-to-month while the new Key TOMs are placed into service.
Agents and Clerks working outlying ticket offices are going to have to be trained to
operate these new machines and how to handle Key sales.

Jeff: I noted your mention concerning coins from the UK and the "hapless" SBA Dollar.
I will mention Canada - which no doubt learned from the mistakes that the US Mint made concerning dollar coins.
Canada eliminated printing their $1 bill on June 30, 1989 after placing the "Loonie" dollar coin in circulation beginning in 1987 which was of a brass yellow color.
Around the end of 1990 the last CDN $1 bills were removed from circulation.
That transition from a $1 paper bill to a dollar coin took four years. Just a few years later
Canada eliminated printing their $2 bill (which was widely used unlike $2 bills in the US) in February 1996 in favor of a new $2 coin nicknamed the "Toonie" leaving the $5 bill
as the lowest denomination currency notes.

I noted the mention of toll roads that issue tickets requiring payment to the furthest
exit with the loss of a toll ticket - with the conversion to cashless tolling vehicle owners
without EZ Passes get their license plate photographed upon exit and a bill is sent to
the registrant. Many toll facilities are going cashless including the PA Turnpike.

I understand SEPTA charging a $3.75 intermediate fare for failing to tap in and out
on a given trip. This should not be charged to weekly or monthly pass riders unless
they go out of zone on peak hour trips the same way as step-up charges have been
applied for legacy passes. Charging the Zone NJ $10 OB fare as a penalty for failure
to tap in or out (the highest possible RRD fare) will only result in problems...

RCT: Close ticket offices outside Center City? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
With Ryan mentioning the lackluster performance of the Key TVMs (the term "Ticket
Machine" or "TVM" is much better than the " Kiosk" term) closing ticket offices and not
providing a "welcoming" human element that Regional Rail has traditionally always had
would be the wrong way. In comparison it took the LIRR to go through at least three
generations of ticket vending machines until they found a system of TVMs and TOMs
that were easy to use and that riders would readily accept which is in service today
after being first introduced in mid 2001.

In case anyone is unaware legacy one way tickets of all types are valid for six months.
QT Tickets bought from Key "kiosks" (such as those at the Airport) are only valid on
the date of sale. If SEPTA changes the validity period of tickets from six months to
ONE DAY under the Key system this is going to affect ALL riders that do not use Legacy
passes or a Key. Taking away the option of purchasing a ticket for ANY future use is
not the way a change adding any outlying TVMs should be applied.

MACTRAXX

[JeffK]

MT: I know this is mostly OT so I’ll keep it short. You’re correct - the "Loonie"s designers specifically intended to avoid our mistake, a lesson the Key’s designers clearly never learned, given their choice to ignore other cities' experiences.

FWIW the Loonie is the same size and color as the Sacajawea dollar. Based on my many visits Up North, the average Canadian has no difficulty distinguishing their dollars from similar-sized 25¢ pieces, while a common objection here is that the Sac (inexplicably) "looks just like a quarter". /sigh

Now back to our regularly-scheduled RR thread...

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone:

With Thanksgiving one week away as of this post along with very high holiday ridership
are there are any "validator pedestals" (as Ryan describes them) at Trenton for riders using the Key?

Will RRD be relying on train crews to check and validate Keys on board to/from Trenton
along with regular fare collection?

The Holiday Season has one of the highest percentages of discretionary riders along
with visitors from outside the region traveling on Regional Rail. Will these passengers
encounter any problems with fares during this transitional period?

MACTRAXX

[ChrisinAbington]

One last thing that's been bugging me for quite a while...What happens when has SEPTA a breach? This system is linked to your credit card...and shows where and when you tap in and tap out making a map of your habits over the course of the key cards life. Are there mechanisms in place ensuring minimizing damage when a breach happens?

Seeing the cards are issued by METABank, METABank would be ultimately responsible for a data breach impacting the payment information. If you are worried about a data breach for a SEPTA Key Card that much, you probably should be buying a Unibomber shack and moving off the grid.

Now that is a bit uncalled for. I would certainly hope SEPTA has a better gameplan than throwing up their hands and offloading customer complaints to a third party. SEPTA owns the Key as their preferred payment instrument. Full stop. It will have hacking attempts made at it every day just like any other corporate financial instrument in today's world, and if they have not taken precautions, their customer data will be exposed to the highest bidder. METAbank could run a tighter operation than Fort Knox, but if SEPTA leaves their shoddy machines and back office infrastructure unsecured, we'll be hearing about it. (or at least I hope they figure it out) This isn't the mid 1990's where kids are doing it for fun to beat McAffee; you have extremely sophisiticated organizations that use this as a method of business. I work in corporate insurance and literally see these everyday from our IT department.
ChesterValley, I think we can guess what the result of this is going to be, so keep an eye on your credit card statement. I certainly hope data security is high on their list of priorities, but also have my doubts.

[rcthompson04]

One last thing that's been bugging me for quite a while...What happens when has SEPTA a breach? This system is linked to your credit card...and shows where and when you tap in and tap out making a map of your habits over the course of the key cards life. Are there mechanisms in place ensuring minimizing damage when a breach happens?

Seeing the cards are issued by METABank, METABank would be ultimately responsible for a data breach impacting the payment information. If you are worried about a data breach for a SEPTA Key Card that much, you probably should be buying a Unibomber shack and moving off the grid.

Now that is a bit uncalled for. I would certainly hope SEPTA has a better gameplan than throwing up their hands and offloading customer complaints to a third party. SEPTA owns the Key as their preferred payment instrument. Full stop. It will have hacking attempts made at it every day just like any other corporate financial instrument in today's world, and if they have not taken precautions, their customer data will be exposed to the highest bidder. METAbank could run a tighter operation than Fort Knox, but if SEPTA leaves their shoddy machines and back office infrastructure unsecured, we'll be hearing about it. (or at least I hope they figure it out) This isn't the mid 1990's where kids are doing it for fun to beat McAffee; you have extremely sophisiticated organizations that use this as a method of business. I work in corporate insurance and literally see these everyday from our IT department.
ChesterValley, I think we can guess what the result of this is going to be, so keep an eye on your credit card statement. I certainly hope data security is high on their list of priorities, but also have my doubts.

The concern that the means of paying Key aren't secured would apply to anyone buying fares are stations using a credit or debit card already.

[ChrisinAbington]

Much more so if the site holds your CC information now as an autopay function. There will be lots of files linked to personal profiles that weren’t there before. The profiles linked to your bank/credit card are where the concern is.
(Edited for grammar typo)

[rcthompson04]

Much more so if the site holds your CC information now as an autopay function. There will be lots of files linked to personal profiles that weren’t there before. The profiles linked to your bank/credit card are where the concern is.
(Edited for grammar typo)

One thing I noticed on the mobile app is that it requires you to add the CVV or CVC number of the card every time you make a purchase with a card. I use a transit debit card so I am not sure what it does for credit cards.

[jamesinclair]

Everyone:

With Thanksgiving one week away as of this post along with very high holiday ridership
are there are any "validator pedestals" (as Ryan describes them) at Trenton for riders using the Key?

Will RRD be relying on train crews to check and validate Keys on board to/from Trenton
along with regular fare collection?

The Holiday Season has one of the highest percentages of discretionary riders along
with visitors from outside the region traveling on Regional Rail. Will these passengers
encounter any problems with fares during this transitional period?

MACTRAXX

I would also like to know if Septa tickets on NJT stock will be continued in perpetuity.

Forcing people to buy tickets twice during their trip, at NJ origin and then at Trenton transfer, would be a giant step backwards.

[redarrow5591]

Everyone:

With Thanksgiving one week away as of this post along with very high holiday ridership
are there are any "validator pedestals" (as Ryan describes them) at Trenton for riders using the Key?

Will RRD be relying on train crews to check and validate Keys on board to/from Trenton
along with regular fare collection?

The Holiday Season has one of the highest percentages of discretionary riders along
with visitors from outside the region traveling on Regional Rail. Will these passengers
encounter any problems with fares during this transitional period?

MACTRAXX

I would also like to know if Septa tickets on NJT stock will be continued in perpetuity.

Forcing people to buy tickets twice during their trip, at NJ origin and then at Trenton transfer, would be a giant step backwards.

That's another one of the unanswered questions.....

[ryan92084]

Can't answer the Trenton station question since it isn't in my range of travel. I don't see why this current holiday season would be affected though since single rides are still the same as they've been. Hopefully by next year things will be running more smoothly.

At the outlying stations at least credit card transactions are decoupled from the metabank key refilling system. Probably for the best since its a bargain chromebook with a a generic branded card reader.

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone:

I read (Inquirer) and later found out more that the Key sales system had crashed on Monday morning 12/2. With some stations no longer carrying December 2019 Legacy Passes there was added demand
to the system alongside Weekly Trailpass sales. Anyone retaining their November 2019 passes were
able to travel to CCP until 10 AM with the long-established first working day of the new month rule.

As Ryan mentions Agents and Clerks at outlying stations have just a small laptop personal computer
and a validating device card reader that is attached to the PC with a cord. I expected more than what
I saw when this was shown to me. I am of the opinion that the Metabank portion is unnecessary for
a smart card system for the majority of riders that do not want or need any Key "frills" attached.

Another thought about the payment system for Regional Rail is to retain the option of buying Legacy
Passes at least until the Key system is further in place and more established and until a payment App
that includes Monthly and Weekly Passes for a mobile device is up, running and most importantly
proven. Giving riders the freedom of THREE pass choices for at least a year or more could be the
way to see what RRD riders will and will not accept in a sort of voting standpoint. SEPTA can let
their passengers decide what payment system will stay and which will go as it should be...

MACTRAXX