SEPTA seeks $$ for major West Trenton Line Help

[South Jersey Budd]

I think the Fox Chase seperation did not work because they went cheap and didn't run a second SEPTA track from Olney to Cheltenham Jct. but just a short passing siding between Lawndale and Cheltenham. There is far too much sitting on that siding waiting for the inbound to pass. On the West Trenton Line the only bottleneck would be from Yardley to West Trenton which is only a few miles so I think it will work much better.

[nomis]

In the AM outbound, I have observed about 5 people onboard for Cheltenham to Fox Chase. In the PM inbound, you may have as many as 15 people

[South Jersey Budd]

And looking at the schedule, the first 3 or 4 trains to Fox Chase in the morning take anywhere from 12 to 17 minutes from Lawndale to Cheltenham, which is unacceptable regardless of how many people are on board, because of poor planning and scheduling. It would be unacceptable to have trains scheduled to sit at Yardley for too long a period. Hope they do a better scheduling job on this line.

[25Hz]

It is my understanding that CSX plan to under-cut from the former wye at neshaminy and will request SEPTA to raise its wires over the bridge so they can run double stacks, perhaps that's why this was such a big deal with every talking head offering a sound bite, and not so much with delays of single specific trains?

[25Hz]

And looking at the schedule, the first 3 or 4 trains to Fox Chase in the morning take anywhere from 12 to 17 minutes from Lawndale to Cheltenham, which is unacceptable regardless of how many people are on board, because of poor planning and scheduling. It would be unacceptable to have trains scheduled to sit at Yardley for too long a period. Hope they do a better scheduling job on this line.

Don't even get me started on septa and their foot-shooty schedules. :\

[Amtrak7]

In the AM outbound, I have observed about 5 people onboard for Cheltenham to Fox Chase. In the PM inbound, you may have as many as 15 people

2011 passenger counts for affected trains and passengers:

812: 6
814: 9
816: 11
8749: 15
8453: 21
849: 13

[ExCon90]

I personally don't care if trains are dispatched out of Kalamazoo, the fact remains service has degraded because of "separation", and its now not possible to increase/improve service because of this. How many more lines are going to be "separated" while politicians and SEPTA propaganda staff tell us its a good thing?

Some people can remember when trains couldn't run through Kalamazoo because of hurricane warnings in Jacksonville. On the whole, it's better to have dispatchers who know the territory at first hand and have actually seen commuter trains. (Come to think of it, I believe it was Grand Rapids, but the principle is the same.)

[South Jersey Budd]

It is my understanding that CSX plan to under-cut from the former wye at neshaminy and will request SEPTA to raise its wires over the bridge so they can run double stacks, perhaps that's why this was such a big deal with every talking head offering a sound bite, and not so much with delays of single specific trains?

Doesn't NS already operate double stacks from Woodbourne East over the bridge to North Jersey? I thought I remember a NS train waiting on the Cutoff for a Westbound SEPTA to clear Wood.

If SEPTA is single tracked between Yardley and the West Trenton Yard with CSX controlling the other track I guess they could remove the wires over the bridge.

[wagz]

Doesn't NS already operate double stacks from Woodbourne East over the bridge to North Jersey? I thought I remember a NS train waiting on the Cutoff for a Westbound SEPTA to clear Wood.

If SEPTA is single tracked between Yardley and the West Trenton Yard with CSX controlling the other track I guess they could remove the wires over the bridge.

CSX does operate double stacks east of WOOD. 25Hz is just quoting inaccurate information again. Clearances east of CP-WOOD have never been an issue, as CSX operates Q190/191 6 days a week South Philadelphia - Kearny, NJ and return. The move must take the NS Harrisburg Line out of Philadelphia to Abrams Yard in Bridgeport, run around the train, then head back across the Schuylkill to run over SEPTA rails (and under wires there too I might add) through Norristown TC for about a mile before joining the NS Morrisville Line. Then its a trek down the Morrisville Line until Woodbourne where the train descends the Wood Connector and re-joins CSX/SEPTA at CP-WOOD for the trip east/north through Yardley and West Trenton.

The undercutting in question is a project that's been taking place for years already on the CSX Trenton Sub between CP-RIVER (in Fairmount Park adjacent to the Schuylkill Expressway - where the NS Harrisburg Line diverges) and CP-WOOD. So far crews have undercut bridges between RIVER and NICE (under SEPTA mainline at Roberts Ave Yard), Cottman/Oxford Ave, Rhawn St, and Bustleton/Red Lion. I've been out of the loop for a while, but last year it appeared prep work was underway adjacent to the Woodbourne north parking lot to undercut the NS bridge. Bridges that I know of along the Fox Chase Line at Olney Ave, Levick St (Lawndale) and Martins Mill Rd (Cheltenham), as well as Byberry Rd hadn't been touched last I looked. SilverlinerII can probably provide more up to date information as he operates over said territory every day.

So the CSX undercutting project has nothing to do with the PTC debate, and doesn't even involve any of that trackage.

[Silverliner II]

Perhaps they could file for an exemption for that section of the line..?

I could be wrong, but I don't believe there are exemptions. PTC is a federal unfunded mandate designed to save lives and property, An exemption would invite disaster.

As far as I know now, NJT has no plans to put dual PTC equipment on their fleet. The needed hardware won't fit in the cab cars or the MU's, which for the freight side includes the PTC video interface screen the size of the video gauge screens on most newer freight locomotives. There is just no place to fit a screen like that in an MU cab or control car cab. But there are no plans to separate or add track between CP-Aldene or CP-Newark either. Countering any talk I heard about NJT getting a waiver, I now hear Conrail is putting both ACSES and PTC on that segment of the Lehigh Line, so that takes care of that.

was the woodbourne station re-built before or after the incident that instigated the ptc legislation? i i've always wondered why they built it on the old 1 track row instead of maybe realigning two track over a bit. it appears that within a few years both septa and csx might miss the ability to have a four track main through there.

Woodbourne station was rebuilt and opened in the fall of 2002. Long before that wreck.

PTC will indeed not protect against rear end collisions IF the last signal passed was a Restricting. I'm not sure how it will handle Stop and Proceed or Restricted Proceed signals on automatics; on NS, the same signal is simply Restricting as well.
PTC will enforce positive stops at Stop signals, work zones, and in DCS (or other dark territory), it will enforce a positive stop at the end of the given track authority. It will work independently of cab signals, which will also still have to be complied with.

I personally don't care if trains are dispatched out of Kalamazoo, the fact remains service has degraded because of "separation", and its now not possible to increase/improve service because of this. How many more lines are going to be "separated" while politicians and SEPTA propaganda staff tell us its a good thing?

For all practical purposes, when this is all said and done, SEPTA will still have 2 tracks on the entire West Trenton Line as far as Yardley. The only single-track section would be from just west (south) of Yardley Station to West Trenton.

As for delays, it all depends on who retains control of CP-Wood and Trent interlockings. Let's assume SEPTA keeps control of Trent since they still will have to cross trains in and out of the yard. CSX will still suffer the delays we have now at that location due to waiting for MU's to pull in or out of the yard.
SEPTA: 1, CSX: 0
Now let's also assume SEPTA keeps control of CP-Wood, since the only freights crossing over the plant are Q190/191 and sometimes C746 to/from the Morrisville Line, as well as C770 to access BCIP. CSX through freights still would have to deal with calling SEPTA to get a light through their portion of the plant even though they would not be interfering with the MU's and sometimes, that takes a little bit as well.
SEPTA: 2, CSX: 0
As a result of the project, CSX now only has one track from CP-Nesh to Trent (where presumably, an interlocking would be installed beyond the MU yard to #1 track to give CSX a passing siding). That is a decrease in capacity, as a certain SEPTA dispatcher has been know to run two freights at the same time (one each way) between Wood and Trent between MU's, while others only deal with one at a time.
SEPTA: 2, CSX: -1
Now, if SEPTA gets Phase II money to shift the MU yard from the south side of the railroad to the north side, that would put an end to any issues at Trent, lock, stock, and barrel. But I can guarantee you that the nearby residents are going to howl bloody murder unless some major league sound barriers are put up. That is why the current mini-sound wall is up between the Runner and Yard 1 there; when Yard 1, 2, and 3 were lengthened, the residents howled at the potential additional noise of the MU's parked there overnight. The wall went up and a special instruction went in for trains parked on the Runner to have pantographs lowered except when the car inspectors were working the track (and now, except for Silverliner V's since I never see them with pans lowered).
SEPTA: 3, CSX: -1, Residents: -1

I'm on the second booklet of PTC familiarization that has been issued to us at CSX and let me say right now that it will not be as easy as getting in the engineer's seat and taking off... there is going to be a shipload of steps for the engineer to perform before departing each crew change point or originating terminal with this. If NJT had to equip with the freight system, they would have to schedule at least an additional 15 minutes layover time at each terminal to allow time to initialize the equipment alone.

With quick mention of the undercutting:
CSX still has to undercut a bit at Olney Avenue, Levick Street, Martins Mill/Old Soldiers, Oxford/Bleigh (thanks to city utility lines running exposed underneath the bridge that shouldn't have been placed there and got by Conrail, so I was told), and Southampton Road (not much, just a little). I am not certain, but I think the overhead bridge south of Langhorne will need to be undercut a few inches as well.
SEPTA catenary span wires may still need to be raised from Newtown Junction to Olney station, the site of the former Crescent interlocking, and a couple of spans at Chelt interlocking, along with the entire stretch from Neshaminy to CP-Wood.

Cab signaling: CSX is not planning to install ACSES on any locomotives beyond the ones that already have it (and the few that do are scattered 6100/6200-series GP40-2/GP38-2S units mostly assigned to New England to handle local duties along Amtrak, Metro-North, and MBTA trackage. Two of the OCS F40PH units are ACSES-equipped as well.
Random ex-Conrail SD40-2, GP38-2, and GP40-2 units have cab signaling only, along with most of the ex-RF&P GP40-2 units. All the ex-Conrail SD60M/SD60I/SD80MAC and most ex-Conrail CW40-8 units retain their cab signals. All new locomotives (except the Gensets) purchased since 2000 have been cab signal equipped. But it is still not a big enough chunk of the fleet to be able to handle all the trains that run on the Trenton Line, as not all of them run through to the RF&P and need cab signaled leaders.

I have been on a number of NS locomotives on some assignments lately, and it seems they are only getting the freight PTC as well. As far as NS cab signal-equipped locomotives go, I know that all the C40-9W units from 9120 and higher, all the ES40DC, ES44AC, all the ex-Conrail power, the SD40E and SD60E rebuilds: all are cab signal equipped. They even added cab signals and LSL to their own SD70's so that the entire fleet of that model would be equipped. But no ACSES-equipped units in their fleet.

[25Hz]

Doesn't NS already operate double stacks from Woodbourne East over the bridge to North Jersey? I thought I remember a NS train waiting on the Cutoff for a Westbound SEPTA to clear Wood.

If SEPTA is single tracked between Yardley and the West Trenton Yard with CSX controlling the other track I guess they could remove the wires over the bridge.

CSX does operate double stacks east of WOOD. 25Hz is just quoting inaccurate information again. Clearances east of CP-WOOD have never been an issue, as CSX operates Q190/191 6 days a week South Philadelphia - Kearny, NJ and return. The move must take the NS Harrisburg Line out of Philadelphia to Abrams Yard in Bridgeport, run around the train, then head back across the Schuylkill to run over SEPTA rails (and under wires there too I might add) through Norristown TC for about a mile before joining the NS Morrisville Line. Then its a trek down the Morrisville Line until Woodbourne where the train descends the Wood Connector and re-joins CSX/SEPTA at CP-WOOD for the trip east/north through Yardley and West Trenton.

The undercutting in question is a project that's been taking place for years already on the CSX Trenton Sub between CP-RIVER (in Fairmount Park adjacent to the Schuylkill Expressway - where the NS Harrisburg Line diverges) and CP-WOOD. So far crews have undercut bridges between RIVER and NICE (under SEPTA mainline at Roberts Ave Yard), Cottman/Oxford Ave, Rhawn St, and Bustleton/Red Lion. I've been out of the loop for a while, but last year it appeared prep work was underway adjacent to the Woodbourne north parking lot to undercut the NS bridge. Bridges that I know of along the Fox Chase Line at Olney Ave, Levick St (Lawndale) and Martins Mill Rd (Cheltenham), as well as Byberry Rd hadn't been touched last I looked. SilverlinerII can probably provide more up to date information as he operates over said territory every day.

So the CSX undercutting project has nothing to do with the PTC debate, and doesn't even involve any of that trackage.

-blinks-

The wires over the delaware bridge are high enough for double stacks? News to me, never ever seen double stack train anywhere along that line EVER. There's the bridge just west of langhorne station, not high enough, the one right next to woodbourne yard, not high enough. I see people keep saying they run double stacks, but i've never seen them, not on the road not in the yards not on the bridge or through grade crossings in my 33 years of living in this area. I even searched youtube....... nothing. I've seen container trains where they were single stacked tons of times though. Something tells me that CSX realizes they can't do doubles, so they don't....? No, that would make WAY too much sense. But hey, if i'm wrong kindly show me the error of my ways with evidence and i'll kindly shut up about it.

[nomis]

Search for Q190 / Q191 ...

And a double stack can get into woodbourne yard from the east side @ CP Woodbourne, in order to set out cars et.al.

WOOD to MORL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4EblWLoYcA
YARDLEY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3FzEQo_pxg
TRENT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZLZzHI6050

[wagz]

-blinks-

The wires over the delaware bridge are high enough for double stacks? News to me, never ever seen double stack train anywhere along that line EVER. There's the bridge just west of langhorne station, not high enough, the one right next to woodbourne yard, not high enough. I see people keep saying they run double stacks, but i've never seen them, not on the road not in the yards not on the bridge or through grade crossings in my 33 years of living in this area. I even searched youtube....... nothing. I've seen container trains where they were single stacked tons of times though. Something tells me that CSX realizes they can't do doubles, so they don't....? No, that would make WAY too much sense. But hey, if i'm wrong kindly show me the error of my ways with evidence and i'll kindly shut up about it.

Go re-read my post. I detailed everything in it. If you can't be bothered to read my post that's not my problem.

Q190/191 runs on the Trenton Sub. from north/east of CP-WOOD only (as I detailed above). Langhorne and the NS Bridge at Woodbourne have nothing to do with it (yet). Of course they're too low. As I detailed there has been an undercutting project underway on that whole railroad south/west of Woodbourne for about five years that is still ongoing. And as I said above it appeared preliminary work was underway next to the Woodbourne north parking lot to begin work.

BTW, lose the attitude dude. You say people keep telling you there are double-stacks and yet you don't believe anyone just because you've never happened to see one, and then try and come up with excuses as to why you're right and everyone else is wrong.

And just to add to what Nomis already posted, here are a couple of my own videos from years past. First one is from Edgewood Rd, a place we had a debate about over in another thread not long ago. Second is at Township Line Rd just north of CP-WOOD where it will leave the Trneton Sub. for NS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYOl9qNGd70" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o5SyUb8Y7s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Quinn]

News to me, never ever seen double stack train anywhere along that line EVER.....<snip> But hey, if i'm wrong kindly show me the error of my ways with evidence and i'll kindly shut up about it.

I'd like to kindly suggest that the error of your ways may be to steer away from the idea that just because you haven't seen it, it's impossible.

[aem7]

The double stacks that are probably seen on the Trenton Line between Trent and RG are the shorter trash containers that are double stacked upon each other. Usually black or grey in color. They are way shorter than the 20' 2" clearance high of normal double stacks. When you see them coming, RUN! They really stink when they pass by.