• NHSL Flag stops

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by ExCon90
 
I haven't ridden the NHSL for quite a while, but I just viewed a head-end video and noticed that the lunar-white wayside flag-stop signals are gone, along with the short third-rail sections on the platform side at stations. When was that installation removed, and was it because maintenance costs were becoming impractally high? (I assume it dated from about the 1930's.) It appeared that the operator slowed down to look for passengers on the platform before accelerating away without stopping.

But life goes on. On the Karlsruhe tram-train network in Germany there are some infill stations served by tram-trains but not DB trains, and a similar system has been in place when I have visited there.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Flag stop policy discontinued 12/7/2020.
  by JeffK
 
My understanding is that the signal-rail system was implemented even earlier, perhaps somewhere in the 1920s. It was considered to be quite innovative, and definitely contributed to the line's comparatively fast schedules.

I don't know how true the story is but one operator said there'd been an increasing number of complaints from riders who were evidently unable to comprehend "Push Button to Stop Train". Given that route 123 express bus service along West Chester Pike was converted to a local after riders fussed about "drivers refusing to stop", I don't think the story's completely bogus.

An old schedule showed the NHSL (still the P&W to many of us) had end-to-end times on the order of 20 minutes in the days of flag stops. That's now up to around a half-hour. Similarly, converting the WC Pike part of the 123 to local service - despite four other routes on the same segment - added 10 to 12 minutes to the schedule. πŸ‘ŽπŸ‘Ž
  by ExCon90
 
Thanks for the information -- good to know but sad to hear.
  by NotYou
 
As usual, SEPTA's priorities aren't a well run service
  by redarrow5591
 
Its that same mentality that caused the Express/Limited services to be discontinued; too many complaints of passups despite the destination signs being multicolored and easy to read.

Complacency at its finest.....
  by JeffK
 
redarrow5591 wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 1:05 pm Complacency at its finest.....
Worse than complacency IMO. It's catering to the people who fuss the loudest, because they can't or won't understand the merely bleedin' obvious.

Next up: "Do Not Stand on Tracks When Train Approaches".

Mike Judge got only one thing wrong in Idiocracy - he set it 500 years in the future.
  by scratchyX1
 
redarrow5591 wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 1:05 pm Its that same mentality that caused the Express/Limited services to be discontinued; too many complaints of passups despite the destination signs being multicolored and easy to read.

Complacency at its finest.....
Seriously?
We have both quickbus (limited stop) and express (large sections with no stops for people living further out) with MAryland MTA buses, and no one has complained about that.
  by ExCon90
 
CTA commissioned a study some years ago from Illinois University Chicago (I think) of their wayfinding signage at L stations which found that 1/3 of the passengers were functionally illiterate, and another 1/3 simply couldn't be bothered to read the signs. I suspect that someone at SEPTA simply decided it was easier to mess up the schedule for everybody than figure out how to get the message across. (Under P&W and Red Arrow management expresses, locals, and short turns worked fine, even without color coding.). I think some people have a mindset of "oh we got a complaint, we have to change something."
  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone: Interesting subject about the NHSL Flag Stop changes at intermediate lower-ridership stations...
Those waiting to board need to be visible to the Train Operator for the car to make the stop...

The N5 cars (and previous equipment) were/are equipped with a bell similar to buses to request the next stop
on board which avoids the car having to make unnecessary stops with no riders getting off (or on)...

The intermediate station signals were an remnant of the P&W that survived until recently as mentioned...
This was an example that helped make the NHSL unique as a rail transit line...MACTRAXX
  by JimBoylan
 
The flag stop signals could be seen from a greater distance than a passenger on the platform could be observed, and included repeater signals before stations on or near curves. The trains didn't have to approach stations slow enough to be able to stop. Prospective passengers didn't have to make themselves visible to express trains, which would pass too fast to turn the signal off.
  by JeffK
 
JimBoylan wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 11:52 am The flag stop signals could be seen from a greater distance than a passenger on the platform could be observed, and included repeater signals before stations on or near curves. The trains didn't have to approach stations slow enough to be able to stop. Prospective passengers didn't have to make themselves visible to express trains, which would pass too fast to turn the signal off.
πŸ‘πŸ‘
SEPTA's thought process seems to be "It's a system that's well-established, efficient, and has worked for more than a century. We CAN'T allow that to continue!!"
  by ExCon90
 
The late Edson L. Tennyson once commented that some people have the mindset that "obsolete" = "anything that works."
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
ExCon90 wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2024 11:12 pm The late Edson L. Tennyson once commented that some people have the mindset that "obsolete" = "anything that works."
Another case in point is E-ZPass. Once regional agencies converted fully to E-ZPass and went full cashless, toll evasion violations have soared, with a number of serial offenders with unpaid amounts in six digits. In New York, there is now an industry of defense attorneys specializing in E-ZPass violations.

Same with older cars (automotive and rail). Older cars are much simpler and basic, new models are computers on wheels with more special attention.
  by Nasadowsk
 
I dunno, the last three cars I’ve bought have had more mechanical problems than computer ones. But mostly wear items, unless you’re Fiat Chrysler, in which case you consider the transmission to be a wear item…

Have yet to get a BSOD and stuck beside the road because the computer was upset.

(BTW, it’s often a ground issue, if it seems like the computer is acting up)