Feds fault NJ Transit crew for fatal train mishap

[thebigc]

Same article from page 3.

Thanks for pointing that out. You're very helpful...

[ScottTheNiceGuy]

So after all of this, whey are Comet IIIs still on the NJCL? If there are problems with some of the low-level platform doors, why not run the IIs, IVs or Vs instead? Send the IIIs to the NEC where they have all high doors.

[Uzi-Cat]

From an outsider's perspective, there is another option (albeit it would be a little time consuming), but on a train with a defect that can not readily fixed (ie: door light problem); would it not be possible for the rear brake to observe and close all doors except for his, so that he may do walk down on platform and perform a visual inspection of said defect; then close his door to let the train go on its way?

They can do that and add 45 minutes to each schedule. Have any idea how long it takes to walk a 8,9,10,12 car train? Go back to bashing conductors for not collecting revenue in the other thread please.

[DutchRailnut]

wpdj61 but by going by book you may create a few delays but the results will be that stuff will get fixed and fast.
I found by shopping a train here or there, they get things fixed faster than by just writing up defects.
Someone tell you you must take faulty stuff, ask for it in writing, preferable a form D tell them thats what miscellaneous line is for.
line 13 I believe, betya nobody will put their name on such a form and you get other equipment.

[Uzi-Cat]

Running a train in that manner is more than creating a few delays here or there. I would rather have mechanical fix the equipment in the first place than run a train in an idiotic fashion to the point where I am taken out of service for that kind of nonsense.

[ryanov]

So after all of this, whey are Comet IIIs still on the NJCL? If there are problems with some of the low-level platform doors, why not run the IIs, IVs or Vs instead? Send the IIIs to the NEC where they have all high doors.

How does that help? The doors are virtually the same -- they all have long doors now.

[Grump]

Until I read this thread I honestly thought it was standard practice for one of the crew of any passenger train to leave his/her door open and watch the platform as the train began moving to make sure nothing was dragged, falling out, etc, platform height irrelevant. NJT crews still do this with their Comet I consists, and I have seen Amtrak do this, as well. LIRR/MNRR MUs (and the LIRR bilevels) all have openable windows by the door control panels, which I had assumed was for this purpose.

It's probably uncomfortable but at least with Arrows, every other vestibule will have a window that opens. Perhaps retrofits should be considered on the Comets, if it is such a no-no to run in bypass at all times to allow a crewmember to watch the platform while departing.

Yes, you do watch the platform, whether the door is opened or closed...
Even if you're running with a Comet I or Arrow equipment with your local door open, you still are prohibited by the safety rules to stick any part of your body out of the train. So, even with that door or window open, your vision up the side of the train is very limited. Its really not that much more that just looking through the window of the door if you're adhering to the rules...

[nick11a]

Even if you're running with a Comet I or Arrow equipment with your local door open, you still are prohibited by the safety rules to stick any part of your body out of the train.

Yes, it is sad that we now put our safety in the hands of technology that time after time has proven to be faulty and unreliable instead of a crewman. And the crewman is still responsible and has tinted tunnel vision.

This is one area where NJT deserves a big "Shame on you."

[Uzi-Cat]

DutchRailnut would like to continue his argument with me personally through my Private Messages, but that will add nothing to this conversation so I will add some more points here to clarify my position.

I am in no way going to take it upon myself to go outside the NJT policy and start walking around on the outside of the train to make sure doors are closed. The NJT policy has a specific routine for closing doors and they want you to follow that. When you start adding in your own policies, that is when you end up in the hearing office for things like "intentionally delaying trains" or "insubordination".

There are lots of locker room lawyers who will always talk big about how they won't be pushed around and will run it there way. Those guys have full time seats at the table of knowledge in the engineers room and are worth staying away from. They love to talk about taking a stand and causing management to cowtow to them. See how big you are talking when you are sitting on the wrong side of the table in the H&I room or when you are signing the waiver for 5 days in the street without pay. I don't care how long you have run trains, the big talkers are a dime a dozen. I am still in service doing it my way and management likes me too dutch!

Doucherailnut, you can stop sending me the private messages with your nonsense. I could care less how you run your trains on your railroad and I really don't care to know any more about you. Your time and effort is better wasted trying to make others think you are a super engineer.

[ryanov]

I do not work for the railroad, but it sounds like I would generally agree with him. I run into cases in my job where I'm often asked to do something with either sub-par equipment or without enough resources. If I do it, I'm setting myself up for later, either for a phone call in the middle of the night, or an investigation from someone else into why I would run such a shoddy system when its shortcomings were known.

There have been cases where I've informed managers, specifically, "you are skating on thin ice with this, and when it goes, I am going to say that I was forced to do this" and ask for them to agree to that, generally over e-mail. The majority of the time, that's not the route we go down.

I do understand it's easier to do what management wants (which I know is not exactly what you're saying anyway), but aren't there situations in which taking the equipment with a broken safety system would be a violation of policy and where, if something happens, they can say "yes, we gave you the broken train, but you were supposed to refuse it?"

[KFC Jones]

When to take a stand and go "by the book?" Its a grey area. You have to choose your battles. One size does not fit all. Many other cliches apply! I know, I was the "by the book" guy when it came to safety at a previous RR employer after witnessing too many dangerous situations and too much company indifference. BOY WHAT A LONELY LIFE THAT IS!!! Everyone thinks your an a**hole, and management puts a target on your back. Better to work problems out through your Union... Bob Marley said, "Change comes slowly, like the ocean."

I would like to clarify one thing here though. It seems some non-NJT employees don't realize that it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to operate with the doors in bypass mode, that's why the switch is there. There is a procedure to follow, and all crew members have a part to play, but there is nothing wrong with running in door bypass per se.

There are those who say that doors were left in bypass with the seal applied to appear as if they were not in bypass as a common practice by mechanical forces. This seems to be confirmed by subsequent (to the Bradley Beach dragging death) inspections performed in yards by the BLE. Not hard to prove. What is impossible to ascertain is weather any given engineer was tricked by these rigged seals, or aware but unconcerned. Of course NOW, everyone knows the deal... nobody can say they don't know, and the rigged seals are PRETTY MUCH a thing of the past.

In the BB situation, my opinion is that the crew members are shouldering far more than their share of the blame, and others namely mechanical forces, the company itself, and the man who was dragged, are shouldering less.

[Grump]

In the BB situation, my opinion is that the crew members are shouldering far more than their share of the blame, and others namely mechanical forces, the company itself, and the man who was dragged, are shouldering less.

Well summarized. I can't agree more.

[KFC Jones]

As for legallity of breaking of manipulating seals the FRA rules are clear on them, and if employees were free to use these switches at will why seal them.

I'll try again: Breaking the seals is ok, but manipulating them so that the feature is cut out, but appears cut in as normal, is not ok. Isn't that clear enough?!

Just a few more fun facts... On NJT, we (engineers) don't have to ask the dispatcher for permission to break the door seals, we inform the dispatcher (and crew) that they have been broken. [Edited to say: after being instructed by the conductor!] Maybe it's different on Metro-North, but there you go. Railroads across the country interpret and apply FRA rules differently. Note the lack of a universal nationwide Book of Operating Rules. All RRs' interpretation and implementation of the FRA's rules are subject to FRA review and approval.

[DutchRailnut]

Ok , but the Dispatcher somehow needs to get notified right.
On NJT is a crew allowed to depart a initial terminal with broken seals ???

[boxcar]

Do you have a copy of NJT TRO-12? No, then please don't comment on our work rules.

boxcar