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  • Phillipsburg Rail Service—Four Years, $90 Million

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #443752  by blockline4180
 
finsuburbia wrote:
SecaucusJunction wrote:You gotta admit, NJT spends tons of money on studies and more studies of projects that have little chance of happening. Then they will raise our fares stating that this is because of enhanced service, new projects, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, weekend service on the M&E and Coast Line is a shell of what it was a few years ago and I'm paying nearly $10 on a ticket from Broadway to NYP!

Not only is THE Tunnel taking priority over this, but many other NJT projects are as well. I gotta laugh when I see NJT's 2020 map on projects they would like to do. You can check off about 3/4 of them as good ideas that will never happen. I wouldnt go buy a house in Phillipsburg and expect to hop a train into the city any time soon.
Planning money generally comes from the capital budget so it does not have any impact on your fares. Even if it did, a $2 million study (spread out over more than a year) is rather insignificant in a $1.6 billion annual operating budget.
finsuburbia,

Yes, but the billion dollar operating budget has to come from somewhere! It is not going to grow on trees!!

And yes, while a 2 million dollar study is insignificant in the grand picture, the studies for various lines and service expansions will add up over time...

 #443761  by finsuburbia
 
blockline4180 wrote:
finsuburbia wrote:
SecaucusJunction wrote:You gotta admit, NJT spends tons of money on studies and more studies of projects that have little chance of happening. Then they will raise our fares stating that this is because of enhanced service, new projects, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, weekend service on the M&E and Coast Line is a shell of what it was a few years ago and I'm paying nearly $10 on a ticket from Broadway to NYP!

Not only is THE Tunnel taking priority over this, but many other NJT projects are as well. I gotta laugh when I see NJT's 2020 map on projects they would like to do. You can check off about 3/4 of them as good ideas that will never happen. I wouldnt go buy a house in Phillipsburg and expect to hop a train into the city any time soon.
Planning money generally comes from the capital budget so it does not have any impact on your fares. Even if it did, a $2 million study (spread out over more than a year) is rather insignificant in a $1.6 billion annual operating budget.
finsuburbia,

Yes, but the billion dollar operating budget has to come from somewhere! It is not going to grow on trees!!

And yes, while a 2 million dollar study is insignificant in the grand picture, the studies for various lines and service expansions will add up over time...
It does not come from the operating budget, it comes from the $1.3 billion capital budget which has zero impact on fares. I was speaking hypothetically if it came from operating budget which in reality, it does not.

In any case, if you want FTA money, you have to do the study. Think of it as an investment. The money that they spend on a study is more than made up for by the money they can get from the FTA.

 #443768  by blockline4180
 
In any case, if you want FTA money, you have to do the study. Think of it as an investment. The money that they spend on a study is more than made up for by the money they can get from the FTA.

Yes, i understand that you need to do the study and obviously is needed to get to the engineering and construction phases! However, I remember hearing people talk about like 8-10 different studies for the MOM line...Were that many really needed for two lines??? Something must be wrong with the process if nobody can agree on anything..Then you also have the NIMBY factor which also prevents projects from moving forward so then all these studies become moot..

 #443793  by jb9152
 
blockline4180 wrote:Oh, my bad! I'm sorry, your right and I am wrong!! It is nice that there have already been some studies on this route and it will be even nicer that it will take maaaany more ongoing studies from various consultants for the next, ummmm 20 years or so! I guess you don't mind them throwing sooo much money into hiring consultants for these studies! I guess NJT will have to raise the fares again to another 10, 20, 30% over the next 20 years just to pay for studies and NOT actual service expansion....

I now bow to your throne and give you the last word!!
There is no need to act like a child. I was simply pointing out the disconnect between the general sentiment I see expressed here that rails should be criss-crossing New Jersey by this point, and the other general sentiment that signs of projects moving forward, such as the start of an environmental review process, alternatives analysis, conceptual engineering, etc., are a signal to start complaining about wasted money and time. Open the great railfan "I can do it better than them" floodgates...

The fact is that due to the laws and regulations with which most large construction projects are now saddled, these types of studies are absolutely required if you want to see dollar one from the feds.

You are free to have your opinion, of course, and to complain at every turn. But I'm happy that the folks that actually have to do the often difficult job of pushing these projects forward are there and doing their jobs. If you don't like the federal process (which I agree can be tiresome, odious, and drawn out), then complain to a legislator. Under the circumstances, it's good to see that projects are being advanced.
Last edited by jb9152 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

 #443794  by jb9152
 
blockline4180 wrote:Yes, i understand that you need to do the study and obviously is needed to get to the engineering and construction phases! However, I remember hearing people talk about like 8-10 different studies for the MOM line...Were that many really needed for two lines???
That's part of the problem - you're basing much of this on "hearing people talk". Can you list the "8 to 10 different studies" that have been completed for MOM? I doubt it, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

By the way, the MOM project is three lines, not two. It's been that way for several years now.

 #443797  by blockline4180
 
jb9152 wrote:
blockline4180 wrote:Yes, i understand that you need to do the study and obviously is needed to get to the engineering and construction phases! However, I remember hearing people talk about like 8-10 different studies for the MOM line...Were that many really needed for two lines???
That's part of the problem - you're basing much of this on "hearing people talk". Can you list the "8 to 10 different studies" that have been completed for MOM? I doubt it, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

By the way, the MOM project is three lines, not two. It's been that way for several years now.
Oh, I'm sorry! My bad it is 3 not 2...

 #443831  by finsuburbia
 
But yeah, does anyone know the MAS along the RVL? Also, does anyone have an employee timetable that shows a deadhead move between Newark and Raritan? Between Newark and High Bridge?

 #443840  by Jtgshu
 
The RVL is roughly 80mph east of Raritan, 70mph west of Raritan - 60mph Aldene to NK.

There are a few speed restrictions along the way - curve at Annandale, Lebanon going east, curve west of Raritan/east of North Branch, curve at Summerville, Cedar Ave xing.

But the RVL is a pretty high speed line, its just doesn't seem that way because 6 cars and a diesel isn't exactly lightning fast.......

Off the top of my head, there are a few Newark to Raritan DH moves, and some Raritan to High Bridge (and vice versa) DH moves - also a few to Plainfield, but Im pretty sure there aren't any Newark - High Bridge DH moves.....(maybe on holiday/day before a holiday schedule though, im not sure)

 #443841  by northjerseybuff
 
Glad to see this study come about..and after reading the article it did say it is in conjunction with the rt78 corridor study..so how long will this study last??
I agree it will be years before this line is extended, look at the cutoff..all the studies and still nothing..step 1 for this one, many more to go

 #444140  by pumpers
 
WOuld love to see a hypothetical timetable for some kind
of limited express from Phillipsburg to Newark. Maybe just
2 or 3 stops in between.

East of Raritan, NJT trains must make at least a dozen stops, no more than 2 miles apart it seems. No wonder it is hard to appreciate that this
is a 70 or 80 mph railroad.

What was the Phillipsburg-Communipaw running time for expresses
"back in the day"when the line was in top shape?

JS

 #444141  by Don31
 
jb9152 wrote:
There is no need to act like a child. I was simply pointing out the disconnect between the general sentiment I see expressed here that rails should be criss-crossing New Jersey by this point, and the other general sentiment that signs of projects moving forward, such as the start of an environmental review process, alternatives analysis, conceptual engineering, etc., are a signal to start complaining about wasted money and time. Open the great railfan "I can do it better than them" floodgates...

The fact is that due to the laws and regulations with which most large construction projects are now saddled, these types of studies are absolutely required if you want to see dollar one from the feds.

You are free to have your opinion, of course, and to complain at every turn. But I'm happy that the folks that actually have to do the often difficult job of pushing these projects forward are there and doing their jobs. If you don't like the federal process (which I agree can be tiresome, odious, and drawn out), then complain to a legislator. Under the circumstances, it's good to see that projects are being advanced.
I agree with you 100%

 #444154  by Ken W2KB
 
pumpers wrote:What was the Phillipsburg-Communipaw running time for expresses "back in the day"when the line was in top shape?
JS
I think the track speed was lower back then. I have some employee timetables from the 30's and 60's around somewhere and that's my vague recollection. May have to do with the then jointed rail, signal system, etc. NJT improved the trackage that remains. Though the CNJ with a 4 track mainline to Raritan could easily operate true expresses without inference from locals, unlike the present situation with only two tracks remaining.

 #444167  by trainhq
 
Reply to Don31;

Yes, there are studies and then there are studies. (By the way, I worked on the ARC EIS too.) Some studies (i.e. ARC) are necessary parts of the process. Other studies are designed as cheap ways of pretending to do something to mollify constituents in locations where there isn't enough money to actually do any real construction. I've worked on both, and it's important to recognize the difference between the two. Given the number of projects looking for funding in New Jersey and the lack of $$$ to actually build them, my guess is that this one is closer to the latter category than the former. But who knows, it may get built some day-maybe after the Lackawanna cutoff!

 #444177  by Don31
 
trainhq wrote:Reply to Don31;

Yes, there are studies and then there are studies. (By the way, I worked on the ARC EIS too.) Some studies (i.e. ARC) are necessary parts of the process. Other studies are designed as cheap ways of pretending to do something to mollify constituents in locations where there isn't enough money to actually do any real construction. I've worked on both, and it's important to recognize the difference between the two. Given the number of projects looking for funding in New Jersey and the lack of $$$ to actually build them, my guess is that this one is closer to the latter category than the former. But who knows, it may get built some day-maybe after the Lackawanna cutoff!
I don't disagree at with you all, I've worked on my share as well. I was agreeing with the previous poster's point about the regulatory layers that must be dealt with these days.

 #444216  by jb9152
 
trainhq wrote:Reply to Don31;

Yes, there are studies and then there are studies. (By the way, I worked on the ARC EIS too.) Some studies (i.e. ARC) are necessary parts of the process. Other studies are designed as cheap ways of pretending to do something to mollify constituents in locations where there isn't enough money to actually do any real construction. I've worked on both, and it's important to recognize the difference between the two. Given the number of projects looking for funding in New Jersey and the lack of $$$ to actually build them, my guess is that this one is closer to the latter category than the former. But who knows, it may get built some day-maybe after the Lackawanna cutoff!
trainhq -

I know the studies of which you speak, but until such time as this study is proven to be one of those "mollifiers", let's give it the benefit of the doubt and be thankful that at least it's being kept on the radar.

My over-arching comment still stands - there are a lot of people on these boards who do not work in the business (you do, Don apparently does, and I do as well) who simply want it both ways, all the time. Every possible pissant or worthy project built NOW, with 50 trains a day...AND simultaneously "Why are they doing a study? Just BUILD it." No matter how many times it's patiently explained to them that there are laws and regulations in place that prevent such construction on a whim, it doesn't sink in. That's my pet peeve.
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