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  • Why are NJ Transit trains so slow?

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #1368752  by DutchRailnut
 
it is not upto railroad to eliminate crossings , funding for overpass would have to come from town or elsewhere.
MN has several crossings that are 70 plus mph territory, amtrak even has some in 90 mph territory.
 #1369035  by ThirdRail7
 
F23A4 wrote:Well, I ride between Jersey Ave and NYP on a daily basis and it definitely seems Amtrak has a good part in how slow we run many times.

Tonight's commute takes the cake: I'm in the 6:12p Exp which departs 30+ minutes after its departure time. Then we creep along after stopping at Sec Jct. Conductor indicated it was due to waiting in an Amtrak train to pass (which it did). Fine.

We finally get to Nwk with New Brunswick being the next stop. We depart Nwk at a good pace, passing the Regional which had an airport stop. Just short of Elizabeth, our train hits the brakes nearly screeching to a halt. (We're on track 3). Regional whizzes by on track 4. We hang for a few minutes. Then light it up at a pace before then crawling towards metro park....to slot in behind said region which has a metropark stop.

Again, we're express between Newark and New Brunswick. Its out of NJTs hands here in Jersey but I pray that Metro North bangs Amtrak that way regularly just east of Hell Gate.

I'll field this one. You were following a Coast Line down three while the Amtrak operated down four. You were held at Iselin, to follow the Amtrak down four. Why? Because unbeknownst to you, one of the reasons the schedule is slow is because there is a major, long term track outage between NBK-TRE. 4 tracks have shrunk to three. Therefore, you followed the train that isn't going to make any stops until it TRE after it leaves MET instead of putting the train that will make four stops and operates at a lower speed ahead. 2 track wasn't an option since there was an Acela heading west on 2.

The schedule is actual set up for certain trains to hold at Ham, County and Iselin to accommodate the track work. I mean, you could always give up your express to decrease the amount of trains since the amount of trains scheduled is based upon all tracks being in service. That would likely reduce the holds.
 #1369039  by bharatrao
 
Why do M&E trains generally run slow (30-40 mph I think) between just after they leave NEC and NWK broad (3-4 miles)? Dead zone between the voltage switch? Hoboken traffic? Something else?
 #1369053  by Fan Railer
 
bharatrao wrote:Why do M&E trains generally run slow (30-40 mph I think) between just after they leave NEC and NWK broad (3-4 miles)? Dead zone between the voltage switch? Hoboken traffic? Something else?
Heading eastbound out of NWK Broad: track limit is 30 over the drawbridge and the first "rightward" curve; after that, limit goes to 55 from Harrison Interlocking to the "leftward" curve and then 75 on the straightaway; HOWEVER, if you are a midtown direct service, you are under a 45 mph signal restriction for the switches at Kearny Interlocking that'll take the train onto the NEC.
 #1369055  by alewifebp
 
EuroStar wrote:I am not sure when was the last time NJT or NJDOT eliminated a grade crossing, but it must have been decades since then. The same is probably true for the whole New York Metropolitan area. I am amazed that even after the Metro-North Harlem Line crash when multiple people died nobody talks about crossing closings or grade separation. Same appears to be true for the LIRR third mainline project -- there I am really puzzled why anyone thinks that a crossing of three busy tracks will leave any time for the auto traffic, especially during rush hour.

The only serious grade separation effort I am aware of is Alameda East in California. There are also couple of single street projects in the midwest, but that is about it. Nothing that I know of is going on in any of the big East Coast metropolitan areas.
Cost and space. Many areas with grade crossings are very dense and would require bridges to be built over the tracks. This is simply not practical in many, if not most areas.
 #1369083  by bharatrao
 
Heading eastbound out of NWK Broad: track limit is 30 over the drawbridge and the first "rightward" curve; after that, limit goes to 55 from Harrison Interlocking to the "leftward" curve and then 75 on the straightaway; HOWEVER, if you are a midtown direct service, you are under a 45 mph signal restriction for the switches at Kearny Interlocking that'll take the train onto the NEC.
So really on M&E east of Summit, the only stretches where an MTD could get a decent 75mph+ run is just west of Maplewood to west of NWK Broad (approx where MBN comes in) - a 6-7 mile run & NY Penn to the Kearny interlocking (I'd imagine about 5-6 miles?). That is roughly borne out by my experience on the 6437 Gladstone Express out of NY Penn which has Maplewood as the first stop.
1) 2-3 min to get through the yard and to the tunnel @ NYP
2) 15 min to NWK Broad (sprint to Kearny interlocking/dead zone & crawl to NWK)
3) 7-8 min to Maplewood - so about 24-26 min absolute best case for the 18 mile run. Average is closer to 28 min

Maplewood to Summit is again slow (45-50 mph?) mainly because of curves I imagine.

And, to earlier points about "high platforms" saving time, this particular train has a large number of Maplewood bound commuters - and takes almost 3 minutes to unload. I'd imagine, having a high platform at Maplewood could cut that in half or less
 #1369091  by Fan Railer
 
Again heading east out of Summit, MAS is 45 until after the first curve. Limit changes to 50 and holds through to Millburn. It then goes up to 60 after the platform, then 70 at MP16 (after the curve past Millburn INT). It comes back down to 60 at MP12 (the curve just after Highland Ave.). That holds until Roseville INT (MBN merge), where the limit drops to 55 and the curve at the interlocking is restricted to 35. Limit drops again from 55 to 30 just outside of Newark Broad.

On the NEC, MAS after Swift and before the tunnel portals is 90, but is hindered by Portal Bridge (60), Secaucus Junction (if the train is stopping), and the 75 mph curve just west of the tunnel portals. If your train is headed west and not stopping at SEC, it is possible to touch 90 just before flying through SEC and then having to take a reduction for Portal.
Last edited by Fan Railer on Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1369134  by bharatrao
 
Thanks Fan Railer. Very informative.
What, I guess, this means is even if a Summit non-stop to NY Penn were introduced (don't think one exists now though there are a few one-stop service), its unlikely the scheduled run will be under 30 min.
 #1369191  by Fan Railer
 
Yea, the best you'll do is Summit to NYP with a stop at NWK Broad. There are two trains with this schedule, one in each direction (at least that I could see on the timetable).

1. 6628 (9:46a to 10:25a); eastbound, mind you, that includes schedule padding.
2. 6641 (4:18p to 4:50p); westbound.

And probably, you're correct. I could see a westbound non-stop run schedule for 30 min, but no less.
 #1369195  by R36 Combine Coach
 
I recall at least one (even both at some point) of the Gladstone Midtown Direct roundtrips skips Broad Street. The pre-2007 configuration of Broad Street (before high level platforms) had a express track for peak direction use.
 #1369225  by bharatrao
 
I recall at least one (even both at some point) of the Gladstone Midtown Direct roundtrips skips Broad Street.
Both Gladstone MTD directs skip NWK Broad westbound but both of them stop there eastbound
 #1369509  by jamesinclair
 
I was on the New Brunswick - Newark Express this past week and we were going a good pace, and yet passed by an Amtrak Regional. I think thats sort of the issue the OP is getting at. If we're going 30 miles without stops, it seems odd that a Regional can go faster.
 #1369517  by EuroStar
 
jamesinclair wrote:I was on the New Brunswick - Newark Express this past week and we were going a good pace, and yet passed by an Amtrak Regional. I think thats sort of the issue the OP is getting at. If we're going 30 miles without stops, it seems odd that a Regional can go faster.
This happens for the same reason I was alluding to before: most of the NJTransit rolling stock is not qualified for the maximum speeds while Amtrak's rolling stock is (or at least higher than the maximum speeds for the NJT equipment). Even though both trains might have had clear ahead of them, yours was not allowed to exceed its maximum allowed speed (NJTransit insiders can help me here, 80mph?) while Amtrak's Regionals are allowed to go above 100mph (again, help me here, what is the max speed those coaches are qualified for?). So even though both tracks might have been such that the MAS was 150mph (reached by the Acelas), your train was not allowed to get a speed as high as Amtrak's train. This will happen even with the new rolling stock that NJTransit has purchased because on any given day any train can be a consist of Arrows and these have the lowest maximum allowed speed, so even if your train was bi-levels and was allowed a higher speed, it would be of no help as the schedule cannot be changed due to the days when that train has Arrows. If the schedule is not going to be changed, it makes no sense to rush that specific consist even if it had a maximum speed higher than the Arrows because then it would need to wait at the next stop until it scheduled departure time.
 #1369550  by timz
 
And trains on the outside tracks are never allowed more than... 110? If the two center tracks are 125 mph for Amtrak the outside tracks are likely 100.