• Commuter Rail Delay Discussion

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: Tadman, nick11a, Kaback9, ACeInTheHole

  • 161 posts
  • 1
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
JoeG wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:36 pm If these old Arrows are really failing every 40,000 miles you would think it would pay to figure out how to get the new ones faster.
Mr. Grossman, possibly you saw this spectacle yourself, but remember circa 1977 how the Arrows sat for about a year, in full view of any Corridor passenger who cared to look, at Manhattan Transfer?

Never completely sure why, but I think that the re-electrification of the "Delay, Linger, and Wait" M&E lines lived up to that name.
  by Backshophoss
 
This is what you get for that ill-advised "turn a MLV into a MU" project,the Arrows are wearing out ,with nothing to replace them.
Design and build the Arrow IV's now,drop that other project BBD is now merged
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
Even if better maintenance was performed on the Arrow IIIs, the upper management would be retiring the Arrow IIIs right now. Just about every day when I hear the news about one of the 3100, 3700, or 200 series trains getting cancelled due to mechanical difficulties, it's no surprise that Arrow IIIs cover those runs. The 3100 and 3700 series trains run as far as Jersey Ave(New Brunswick) while the 200 series trains run HOB-MSU. Of course, we cannot forget the Gladstone Branch which MUs run on the majority of the time. Those poor Gladstone Branch passengers have felt the brunt of the delays and cancellations, thanks to unreliable outdated Arrow IIIs still in revenue service.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Backshophoss wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:26 pmDesign and build the Arrow IV's now,drop that other project BBD is now merged
Two off shelf designs are available: Silverliner V and MR90.
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:11 am remember circa 1977 how the Arrows sat for about a year, in full view of any Corridor passenger who cared to look, at Manhattan Transfer?
The Arrow IIIs were ordered for the Hoboken Division, and NJDOT hoped the 3k DC would be converted to 25k AC in 1978, but took six years. Most Arrows ended up on the NEC for the time being or stored into the early 80s.
  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone:

This mention of the Arrow Three MU car age should be enough to create a new topic
about these MU cars titled "Arrow Three MU car history"

The Arrow Three fleet was designed and built for use on the Erie Lackawanna (former DL&W) M&E routes which were to be re-electrified. The change to 25 KV AC from 3000
volts DC was completed in August 1984.

The original A3 concept from Lewis T. Klauder Associates (rail passenger transport consultants) drawings shows the Arrow Three cars with low-level platform end doors
similar to the NJDOT/EL Comet One cars.

When these cars were delivered to NJDOT in 1977-78 they had a limited area where
they could be used which was the former Penn Central routes between Penn Station
New York and Trenton; The North Jersey Coast Line northern electrified segment to
South Amboy (extended to Matawan in 1982) and the Princeton Branch.

The Arrow Three fleet would end up (along with the 70 Arrow Two cars) fully equipping these routes with new MU cars which would bring about a steady increase in ridership
through the 80s and 90s.

When these cars were delivered there was limited places that these cars could be stored - and one of the safest and most visible were the tracks east of Newark in the
vicinity of Hudson Tower as GBN notes.

These surplus MU cars (both Arrow Two and Three) would be leased to Amtrak and be
used in electrified territory: New York-Philadelphia; Philadelphia-Harrisburg and south
of Philadelphia: The "Chesapeake" Philadelphia-Washington used Arrow MU cars.

Maryland DOT leased a small group of Arrow MU cars for use on the former PRR/PC Baltimore-Washington commuter trains replacing older MP54 MU cars. This was the
predecessor of what is now known as the MARC Penn Line.

In 1984 NJT would "call back" their leased Arrow Two and Three cars in time for the
completion of the M&E re-electrification in August 1984.

The original 1969 Arrow One cars were not compatible with the two newer MU car
types and would end up in long term storage and eventual conversion to straight
coaches - some are today in service for California DOT in San Joaquin route trains.

During the mid to late 1990s the Arrow Three fleet was overhauled/rebuilt which
added spotting features such as new seating and updated interiors; on the exterior
LED destination signs, a resistor grid "cage" on the roof with visible warning signs
reading "HOT" (literally) and "High Voltage"; one of the air intakes in the center of
the car were lengthened/made larger to allow more air flow into the car.
With the rebuild the top speed was lowered from 100 to 80 mph.

The thought with the Arrow Three mid-life overhaul was for 20 more years of service.
That has been reached - and then some. This rebuilding should be mentioned when
there are any complaints concerning the age of the Arrow Three MU cars. Near the
end doors are plaques showing the re-build dates of each car.

What NJT found was that MU cars were good for shorter trains of four cars or less on
the M&E routes - the best example are the three car trains on the Gladstone Branch.

Longer trains would still be used on the NEC - in recent years New Brunswick/"County"
based (Jersey Avenue) are good examples along with some Trenton trains.

The Arrow Three cars have had a long and interesting history for NJDOT, Conrail
(initially) and then NJT directly since 1983...MACTRAXX
  by lensovet
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:38 am
Backshophoss wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:26 pmDesign and build the Arrow IV's now,drop that other project BBD is now merged
Two off shelf designs are available: Silverliner V and MR90.
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:11 am remember circa 1977 how the Arrows sat for about a year, in full view of any Corridor passenger who cared to look, at Manhattan Transfer?
The Arrow IIIs were ordered for the Hoboken Division, and NJDOT hoped the 3k DC would be converted to 25k AC in 1978, but took six years. Most Arrows ended up on the NEC for the time being or stored into the early 80s.
SV were 2+ years behind schedule and trucks that required full suspensions just 3 years after being in service. And single-level when we have a barely functional tunnel under the Hudson. Thanks but no thanks?

What's an MR90? The only thing I'm finding is a Bombardier model from the mid-90s.
  by andrewjw
 
lensovet wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:53 am SV were 2+ years behind schedule and trucks that required full suspensions just 3 years after being in service. And single-level when we have a barely functional tunnel under the Hudson. Thanks but no thanks?

What's an MR90? The only thing I'm finding is a Bombardier model from the mid-90s.
MR90 the Montreal EMU which will be put into surplus when REM opens. See www.railroad.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=170504 for details.The design would probably be fine if you certified them for a higher top speed, re-powered it to support the varied systems on NJT, and replaced the stairs with traps. But at the end of the day you're getting a 30 year old product.
  by lensovet
 
andrewjw wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:05 am
lensovet wrote: Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:53 am SV were 2+ years behind schedule and trucks that required full suspensions just 3 years after being in service. And single-level when we have a barely functional tunnel under the Hudson. Thanks but no thanks?

What's an MR90? The only thing I'm finding is a Bombardier model from the mid-90s.
MR90 the Montreal EMU which will be put into surplus when REM opens. See www.railroad.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=170504 for details.The design would probably be fine if you certified them for a higher top speed, re-powered it to support the varied systems on NJT, and replaced the stairs with traps. But at the end of the day you're getting a 30 year old product.
…and spending even more money to do all those things on a 30-year product.

NJT did what they had to do because there were no other options. The claim that there were "two off shelf designs" that they could just use is simply false.
  by andrewjw
 
Yeah... totally agree MR90 was not a solution. Silverliner V design without a bunch of weird demands seems to perform OK in Denver - the direct faults in the SEPTA models were with the trucks which SEPTA had specified they were required to use. I agree they have other concerns: the Philly factory is closed, the product is so-so quality, etc...

Shame Kawasaki is exiting the biz, the M-8 with the DC equipment stripped would run fine on NJT. (They were purchased with Penn voltage/frequency compatibility, right?) Not that it is an exceptional product either.

I agree with the conclusion that there was no obvious better option at the time of the order. (If they started again today, alternate compliance would be obviously better...)
  by lensovet
 
andrewjw wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:40 pm Yeah... totally agree MR90 was not a solution. Silverliner V design without a bunch of weird demands seems to perform OK in Denver - the direct faults in the SEPTA models were with the trucks which SEPTA had specified they were required to use. I agree they have other concerns: the Philly factory is closed, the product is so-so quality, etc...

Shame Kawasaki is exiting the biz, the M-8 with the DC equipment stripped would run fine on NJT. (They were purchased with Penn voltage/frequency compatibility, right?) Not that it is an exceptional product either.

I agree with the conclusion that there was no obvious better option at the time of the order. (If they started again today, alternate compliance would be obviously better...)
M8 is still single-level and if its interior is like M7, those cars feel claustrophobic and tight as hell for some reason. I actually find BBD's design quite clever, assuming they can pull it off.
  by nomis
 
andrewjw wrote:Shame Kawasaki is exiting the biz, the M-8 with the DC equipment stripped would run fine on NJT. (They were purchased with Penn voltage/frequency compatibility, right?)
The M8's need that DC compatibility to run into Penn Station. They do not have a 25 Hz transformer on board.
  • 1
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11