• Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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  by Backshophoss
 
Then become a Lobbyist in H-burg and get the state critters to cough up the CASH!
  by Rockingham Racer
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:14 am
photobug56 wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:00 am Sounds strange but it's a longer distance train, would be worth it.
Didn't amtrak propose to go to Scranton a while ago? Or at least somewhere near that area? This was probably years if not decades ago if I'm not mistaken.
If you mean 30 years ago by "a while ago", the answer is yes.
  by Dcell
 
Wow - did we all just come out of winter hibernation? What a flood of new comments. All from Pennsylvania rolling out a new cost study? Anyway, it’s all a theoretical debate as NJT has no plans at all to extend service beyond Andover. My proof? Read the capital spending plans listed on the NJT and NJDOT web sites. Imnot even certain the segment to Andover can be completed because 2 NJDEP permits still have not been secured. That’s why there are missing segments between sections of rails installed in 2012. And no freeholder, Assemblyman or Senator has complained about the lack of progress in getting to Andover.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Okay, first I cannot find a forum beyond General Class Ii Discussion. covering oversight agency PNNR, or whatever, or the operating road, the D-L RR.

I note all their blurbs that traffic is up, and blah blah. But after taking a Googlemobile Ride-along. it doesn't exactly
look like the D,L&W even into the '60's where there was still "pride in our property" - even when they knew the end was at hand, and when "Miss Phoebe" took me over her Cutoff and her Tunkhannock Viaduct. But all she had was her "friendly NKP" at Buffalo. Once the on-line coal was mined out, . how could she realistically expect Shipper's Route as a "bridge" for traffic originating on the NYC to keep her alive?

It was just a little later run of the NYO&W, which did not have any abundance of on line coal.

I wouldn't even know where that present day excuse for a road interchanges with CSX or NS.

But closing on relevance to this topic, how would they ever operate passenger trains over this "stick-rail in the mud" property?
  by JoeG
 
Mr Norman, you break my heart comparing the late, lamented Lackawanna to the Old & Weary.

I am assuming the fantasies on this thread include 136 lb welded rail paid by a billion or so in Feddybucks by the time we are through and my grandchildren (so far unconceived) are collecting Social Security.

Why not electrification? We could run Acela21 to Scranton! (Or maybe Acela41...)
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
JoeG wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:45 pm Mr Norman, you break my heart comparing the late, lamented Lackawanna to the Old & Weary.
First Mr. Grossman, allow me to add to the captioned quote😄😄😄

But really the same parmeters were in place with either property - roads that had competition with far superior routings that in most part were provided by God.

True "Delay, Linger and Wait" had on-line coal, especially residential Anthracite coal (our family's first Cos Cob house had such and the Greenwich Coal Company would come to "fill 'er up" in their chain driven Macks), and the Managers (that is what Miss Phoebe called her Board) chose to reinvest profits from handling such into the superb mountain region road that once existed.

Wise? well anyone about to start another 367 page and counting "epic" on that?

But the coal got mined out, and natural gas became the primary home heating fuel. So did the "raison d' etre" for the DL&W.

There was even less reason for the "Old Woman". She never had coal; her supposed "raison" was developing Lake Erie docks at Oswego. Amazing she lasted until '57.

Also amazing "Miss Phoebe" lasted until '60 when the sinking ship was offered a hand from the leaky one named ERIE. No wonder, save the ERIE through Southern Tier NY where NS rebuilt the trestle over the Genesee and handles new rail equipment being delivered, it's all been "Short-Lined" or abandoned.

And somebody today wants to run passenger trains through the brambles - and disturbing Hootie the Owl and Freddie the Ferret in the process?
  by joeycannoli
 
Dcell wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:00 pm Wow - did we all just come out of winter hibernation? What a flood of new comments. All from Pennsylvania rolling out a new cost study? Anyway, it’s all a theoretical debate as NJT has no plans at all to extend service beyond Andover. My proof? Read the capital spending plans listed on the NJT and NJDOT web sites. Imnot even certain the segment to Andover can be completed because 2 NJDEP permits still have not been secured. That’s why there are missing segments between sections of rails installed in 2012. And no freeholder, Assemblyman or Senator has complained about the lack of progress in getting to Andover.
Which permits are you speaking of? I thought all of the necessary permits were secured at this point to complete the Andover segment without further delay.
  by Dcell
 
There are 2 NJDEP wetlands permits that have not been issued as of Feb. 13, as DEP responded to an OPRA request.
Congressman Gottheimer has not taken a position on whether the LC should be completed. That’s not very encouraging.
[/quote]

Which permits are you speaking of? I thought all of the necessary permits were secured at this point to complete the Andover segment without further delay.
[/quote]
  by n2cbo
 
Dcell wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:53 am There are 2 NJDEP wetlands permits that have not been issued as of Feb. 13, as DEP responded to an OPRA request.
Congressman Gottheimer has not taken a position on whether the LC should be completed. That’s not very encouraging.
Which permits are you speaking of? I thought all of the necessary permits were secured at this point to complete the Andover segment without further delay.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Wetlands??? That's a joke... the cutoff is on an elevated berm.......
  by CJPat
 
The cutoff is mostly elevated except where it passes through the Roseville Tunnel and a few land cuts along the route. Because no maintenance has been performed to keep the drainage open, areas began to flood. At some point NJDEP considered these permanent wetted areas which met the definition of Wetland and started applying their Wetland rules.

I was under the impression that the area around the Roseville Tunnel had been resolved with the NJDEP which is why NJT was in the process of letting out contracts to address refab work with the Tunnel itself (I think we discussed this 1-2 years ago?). Last I heard, the contract could only be executed during certain warm weather months due to migrating birds/bats (?) If it is not about permitting around the Tunnel, I am not sure where they may still have environmental issues to work out.

The only other note I will offer is that I have been watching Chuck Walsh's (of the NJRCA) numerous videos on YouTube regarding history and status of the Cutoff. Purely based on his responses, it would appear that although no significant progress is occurring at this moment, there is some kind of forward movement on both NJ and PA's side.

Regardless, no large sums of money have been committed to move anything along faster than a snail's pace when convenient. I understand Mr. Norman's perspective, but regardless, things have been moving forward over these so many long years and I think that would imply this is not a true Dead Horse. It may not be highly desired by the Politicos or management, but it is not truly ignored either so someone with some kind of political pull feels the cutoff has some kind of potential value.
  by joeycannoli
 
CJPat wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:20 pm The cutoff is mostly elevated except where it passes through the Roseville Tunnel and a few land cuts along the route. Because no maintenance has been performed to keep the drainage open, areas began to flood. At some point NJDEP considered these permanent wetted areas which met the definition of Wetland and started applying their Wetland rules.

I was under the impression that the area around the Roseville Tunnel had been resolved with the NJDEP which is why NJT was in the process of letting out contracts to address refab work with the Tunnel itself (I think we discussed this 1-2 years ago?). Last I heard, the contract could only be executed during certain warm weather months due to migrating birds/bats (?) If it is not about permitting around the Tunnel, I am not sure where they may still have environmental issues to work out.

The only other note I will offer is that I have been watching Chuck Walsh's (of the NJRCA) numerous videos on YouTube regarding history and status of the Cutoff. Purely based on his responses, it would appear that although no significant progress is occurring at this moment, there is some kind of forward movement on both NJ and PA's side.

Regardless, no large sums of money have been committed to move anything along faster than a snail's pace when convenient. I understand Mr. Norman's perspective, but regardless, things have been moving forward over these so many long years and I think that would imply this is not a true Dead Horse. It may not be highly desired by the Politicos or management, but it is not truly ignored either so someone with some kind of political pull feels the cutoff has some kind of potential value.
The last I heard all of the environmental issues and permits had been worked out and there was nothing stopping the completion of this MOS. The Indian Bat is the endangered species that prevents clearing from April-November IIRC because the project is federally funded.

The MOS is fully funded and has been for years. However, as it has been said before, it seems there are more pressing infrastructure needs for NJT at this time. I don’t believe this is a dead horse at all, it’s just moving at a snails pace.
  by lensovet
 
there was also easement issues around the future site of the station, where the property owner would not provide an easement to build a drainage culvert near where the station would be. this is what NJT called out in their response to you that you provided in post 1534881 (yes).

since people keep talking over each other and have seemingly missed that post, let me just repost the relevant bit:
The work on the new station itself won’t proceed until the tunnel starts. If the station were finished first, it would itself be subject to deterioration and vandalism while awaiting completion of the tunnel. So the two will be built simultaneously, to coordinate the construction finish times.

The general schedule, given all the above, is for design to be completed during 2020 to early 2021, with construction on both tunnel and station commencing shortly thereafter.
  by CJPat
 
The Hudson Farm Culvert easement issue was also resolved about a year or so ago.
  by joeycannoli
 
lensovet wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:28 pm there was also easement issues around the future site of the station, where the property owner would not provide an easement to build a drainage culvert near where the station would be. this is what NJT called out in their response to you that you provided in post 1534881 (yes).

since people keep talking over each other and have seemingly missed that post, let me just repost the relevant bit:
The work on the new station itself won’t proceed until the tunnel starts. If the station were finished first, it would itself be subject to deterioration and vandalism while awaiting completion of the tunnel. So the two will be built simultaneously, to coordinate the construction finish times.

The general schedule, given all the above, is for design to be completed during 2020 to early 2021, with construction on both tunnel and station commencing shortly thereafter.
Thanks for reiterating. It does seem like a lot of people missed that post of mine. Hopefully NJT keeps to their word and finishes the design by the end of the year and construction starts shortly after. I wont hold my breathe though - the 367 pages of this thread has taught me better.
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