Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

[n2cbo]

The "Snow" has passed on to RR history,,Amtrak will NEVER run service out of Hoboken, Just get the rails to Andover and then STOP!!!
PA is anti mass transit GIVE UP on Scranton,please!!!!!!

It would NOT have to run from Hoboken. It could run out of Penn, just like all the other Midtown Direct services.

And actually, I would like to see it go all the way to Chicago. Combine with the Lake shore at Syracuse (that is if there is still good track between Scranton and Syracuse) You would serve at least 3 college towns that currently do not have rail service: Stroudsburg, Scranton, and Binghamton. I know it's only a dream, but you never know... Of course there is about as much chance of that happening as me winning the PowerBall lottery...

[njtmnrrbuff]

When I rode behind the 765 in 2015 from Scranton to the DWG, our trip took more than doubled the amount of driving time. Would we want passengers to be riding in a commuter train that takes about two hours to travel what is between 45 and 80 miles of close to direct roads? No. Either the excessive curvature gets eliminated as much as possible between E. Stroudsburg and Scranton or we don't get the regularly scheduled rail service at all. This is not the Steamtown Excursion trains. This would be either NJT or even better-Amtrak. I would just have NJT not go beyond E. Stroudsburg. When the line is extended to Andover, that will still be some sort of progress as it will bring the NJT rail system into Sussex County as well as be very close to important towns in that county like Newton.

[amtrakowitz]

When I rode behind the 765 in 2015 from Scranton to the DWG, our trip took more than doubled the amount of driving time. Would we want passengers to be riding in a commuter train that takes about two hours to travel what is between 45 and 80 miles of close to direct roads? No. Either the excessive curvature gets eliminated as much as possible between E. Stroudsburg and Scranton or we don't get the regularly scheduled rail service at all. This is not the Steamtown Excursion trains. This would be either NJT or even better-Amtrak. I would just have NJT not go beyond E. Stroudsburg. When the line is extended to Andover, that will still be some sort of progress as it will bring the NJT rail system into Sussex County as well as be very close to important towns in that county like Newton.

The former DL&W between Scranton and Delaware Water Gap is currently operating on train orders and has a maximum speed of 45 mph. It's not the curvature that slows trains down, but that; and that's aside from the stretches of straight track from East Stroudsburg to Cresco, and from Pocono Summit through Tobyhanna and Gouldsboro to Moscow.

[photobug56]

What's 765? And I'd hazard a guess that if there to be enough traffic, including passenger, to warrant it, we'd see signaling and track upgrades to improve speed.

[amtrakowitz]

What's 765?

That would be the former New York, Chicago & St. Louis (Nickel Plate) 2-6-4 at Steamtown, IINM.

And I'd hazard a guess that if there to be enough traffic, including passenger, to warrant it, we'd see signaling and track upgrades to improve speed.

If under basic commuter rail standards, at least Class 4 welded track (if maximum speed is to be around 79 mph), CTC and (since mandatory) PTC.

[Dcell]

No offense to anyone, how did we get to steam train travel times? I’d like to focus on the here and now. Is the extension to Andover ever going to get completed? I ask because on NJTs schedule of upcoming contracts for the next 6 months, there is no project for rehabbing Roseville Tunnel or building a station and parking lot at Andover. That’s a fact because the list is posted on NJTs web site. Is this another unicorn project like West Trenton or MOM, hoped for and talked about it never to be realized? I’m hoping not but the rails installed in 2011-12 are rust coated and NJTs silence and inactivity raise doubts to me.

[Backshophoss]

This project has been "back Burnered" for now,while the "Christe Era" battle damage is tended to.
This is a Time and materials project,when both are available.

[Jeff Smith]

I don't mind discussion of some of these other possibilities, but lets keep this thread to Andover, at most, Scranton. Start another topic in NJ or PA railfan for the other ideas. Thanks.

[photobug56]

In trying to get back to what for me are the basic issues; Over the years I've had many drives and rides between NYC and Scranton. For a while I drove, later on took Martz Bus, later driving from Long Island to Scranton. The one thing they had in common - lots and lots of waiting for traffic. I'm pretty sure it's not gotten any better.

I'm well aware that Gov Christie devastated NJT. And that even before him NJT constantly kept putting off the restoration of the Lackawanna Cutoff. At one point the cost estimate was about $250 million. I'm sure it's several times higher now. And I know it's not just rebuilding one track for what, 21 miles? Bridges, tunnels, etc. need to be rebuilt or rehabbed heavily. But the right of way is mostly there. and In PA, there has been, at least to some degree, a revitalization of railroading in NEPA. When I was a kid growing up in Scranton, only place I'd ever seen trains was in places like Clark Summit, all very long freights passing through. By the time I was 10, passenger train service was already on its way out, with maybe 5 or so years left before completely gone. Contrail tore up and sold off the Cutoff, and restoring service was just a dream.

The need, though, is quite real. Taking slow running buses is not fun. Not a good way to get from NYC (from the still scary PA Bus Terminal / homeless shelter) to the Poconos and back, or Scranton and back. And it's not just weekend passengers, people have long since commuted to NYC from Scranton or just east of Scranton. I respected Martz - having reserved seats on a decent bus helped, but I still dreaded the trip. Being stuck in a fairly narrow seat with nearby smokers, etc. not nice. And I grew up with stories of my father 'commuting' by train from Scranton to places like Detroit in the 50's. And visiting Lackawanna Station in Scranton, the at beautiful and grand place, a day or so before it reopened as a major hotel in Scranton for New Years Eve around 1980. And writing NJT to ask about project progress in reopening the Cutoff.

I know that NJT has to recover. It's got to get its train operations back going again on all lines. And to fix and get its fleet up to par, and to start moving west again. Hey, we're talking about what, 21 miles including the 7 already planned? It's not like we need to create a route - the right of way is there. Yes, a lot to do to rebuild it. And yes, Monroe and Lackawanna counties have a lot of work to do - but they do have freight and tourist trains running. The line is there. If NJT does their part, I believe PA knows it must do their part in paying for a part of the operation. Will I live to see it, let alone ever ride it? The more negative we are, the lower the odds. But we are not the only people involved. So we should join with other supporters. And pester NJT - politely, and politicians in NJ and PA to push. But not constantly try to come up with reasons why it shouldn't ever happen. Instead, proposals about how to do it the right way!

[93r8g7]

I'm well aware that Gov Christie devastated NJT.

Gov Christie did not "devastate" NJT. He forced accountability and to pay it's bills. But as long as "New Jersey" is associated with anything, that will not be happening. A responsible person would slash NJT funds to the bone, after all these years of throwing taxpayer money at the agency, only to have those dollars flushed down the toilet. Please stop defending the same agency that tried to dump train cars during Hurricane sandy, yet play the public for a bunch of fools like it was normal procedure. There's so much rot and decay at NJT, they a good cut in funds is what is much needed and Christie was right to do so.

SEPTA is only authorized to run trains in 5 PA counties

Wrong. SEPTA is 'authorized' to operate Statewide, and can be brought on, contracted wherever service is needed or wanted. SEPTA owns tracks up to Bethlehem, and has run trains as far west as Harrisburg and as far South as Washington DC in my lifetime. Lots of complete misinformation on this board.

PA will pay.

Likely not, nor should they.

Dude you keep humping wrong leg, we want this as much as any rail buff. Pennsylvania just does not agree and has not allocated any money.

Correct. Good move, Pennsylvania. A better steward of taxpayer dollars than NJ, a state that shovels gobs of money it does not have down black holes, it seems on a daily basis.

Service to Scranton by NJT would be on a contract basis like NJT with MN's WOH service.
Would be under PennDOT banner,not SEPTA's.

Yes, and PennDOT would partner with SEPTA. Pure and simple.

[photobug56]

I'm getting the impression that certain people here do not believe that mass transit should be paid for or expanded at government expense. Sure, NJT is a mess - a huge mess, but how do you explain an agency that couldn't pay enough to train crew members to keep them from leaving? Or to keep equipment maintained? I don't doubt that NJT was badly managed - for instance, MTA is a disaster, but it doesn't have to shut off lines for many months.

But the idea that we don't spend to get cars off congested roads is absurd. And sooner or later PA will have to cough up, given that you can't expand roads any more and that trains cost less than new road capacity.

And to think that Christie takes responsibility or is accountable for anything seems quite a bad joke to me.

[jrevans]

I found this posting on another forum. I can't find a link to the original article.

From the March 2, 2020 Scranton Times Tribune.

Admin Note: Quote truncated to a brief, fair-use article quote to comply with copyright laws. Different link found: https://www.citizensvoice.com/news/new- ... -1.2602104

Cost to restore rail service far lower than officials thought, study shows
The Times-Tribune BY BORYS KRAWCZENIUK STAFF WRITERJASON FARMER / STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER

Don’t expect to climb aboard that passenger train to Hoboken, New Jersey, until years from now, but the latest study focused on it offers renewed hope.

The “Lackawanna Cutoff Restoration Commuter Rail Study” pegs the cost at $288.93 million, far lower than the $551 million estimate in a 2006 study.

...

The new study focuses solely on the cost of reinstalling the tracks, upgrading two major bridges and other related work necessary to complete 133 miles of continuous rail between Scranton and Hoboken.

That means:

about 21 miles of missing track on the 28.45mile Lackawanna Cutoff in New Jersey between a Delaware River bridge and Andover, New Jersey, where a future station is expected to open in 2025. New Jersey Transit has restored about 4.25 miles of track on the other 7.3 miles of the cutoff between Andover and Port Morris, where its current service ends.

to the 1,450-foot Delaware River Viaduct, which spans the Delaware River, and the 938-foot Paulins Kill Viaduct; building a train station at the Delaware Water Gap and a new bridge at Slateford; installing new track in Pennsylvania; and new train signals along the entire stretch.

The 2006 study included all that but also other upgrades all the way to Scranton, eight new train stations in the two states and two new maintenance shops, including one in Scranton.

...

Excursion trips already operate on existing track between Scranton and the Delaware Water Gap, Malski said. Presumably, a restored train from Hoboken could run all the way to Scranton using that track, but not without the 21 miles missing on the cutoff.

...

[photobug56]

A bit of optimism! I think that if it gets done, improvements could follow.

[CarterB]

If PA wants to foot the bill all the way to Andover, fine. But NJ isn't about to fund ANYTHING beyond Andover.

[cjvrr]

I'm getting the impression ....that mass transit should be paid for or expanded at government expense.

I would humbly change "government expense" to taxpayer expense.

It all comes out of our pockets.