Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

[Lackawanna484]

Instead CR takes up the rail for their ever-important CWR plant. As if 26 miles of relay rail for a 13,000 mile railroad was a deal-breaker. What a crock! Then CR gives the ROW to Turco for a million dollars...

Conrail lived in an insane fear that somebody (CPR, D&H, NS, etc) would invade the NY Metro Fatherland, and take away their business. It was a major driver on business strategy from 1976 to about 1995, when they noticed D&H had attracted a whopping five cars a month to their Oak Island service in a decade of trying. Same thing with Philly, and with the Pot Yard run via Sunbury.

It sounds dumb now, but it was a major factor then, and was also a reason why they sold only the DL&W piece above Analomink to the PA Rail Authority. By holding the four or five miles to Slateford, they controlled access to the bridge and to the B&P.

[thebigc]

That was their rationale back then. As if freight had anywhere to go once it traversed the cut-off. Add in the clearance issues, which prohibited double-stacks, and CR's logic was indeed unfounded.

And as you alluded to, D&H's meager carloadings at Oak Island bore this out.

[Lackawanna484]

The PennJersey Rail Coalition picked up the previously cited article from the Scranton Times on the Cut-Off. The PJRC is now acknowledging the 2006-2007 start work date may not work, maybe 2010 or later is more realistic. Given the various issues noted (some station design changes will impact the enviro study, etc) 2010 is prob still too optimistic.

The other significant viewpoint shift is in the Scranton Times's realization NJ's transportation fund is empty, and the projects lined up behind the new Hudson Tunnel project may never be built. Pennsy seems to have the bucks for the Cut-Off, but NJ doesn't, and likely won't.

http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/print ... d=13711806

[sullivan1985]

Instead CR takes up the rail for their ever-important CWR plant. As if 26 miles of relay rail for a 13,000 mile railroad was a deal-breaker. What a crock! Then CR gives the ROW to Turco for a million dollars...

Conrail lived in an insane fear that somebody (CPR, D&H, NS, etc) would invade the NY Metro Fatherland, and take away their business. It was a major driver on business strategy from 1976 to about 1995, when they noticed D&H had attracted a whopping five cars a month to their Oak Island service in a decade of trying. Same thing with Philly, and with the Pot Yard run via Sunbury.

It sounds dumb now, but it was a major factor then, and was also a reason why they sold only the DL&W piece above Analomink to the PA Rail Authority. By holding the four or five miles to Slateford, they controlled access to the bridge and to the B&P.

Conrail was very paranoid. Once they had no use for a line, up it came with no thought of the future.

[henry6]

There are better stories than that...like in PA near Wellsboro and other places on the system, rail was pulled and sold in the cover of darkness and before or during the ink drying process on abandonment permission slips. Sometimes by rail officials and employees who pocketed the monies themselves!

[JLo]

Pennsy seems to have the bucks for the Cut-Off, but NJ doesn't, and likely won't

That's not really true given what SEPTA and Pittsburgh are facing these days. The reality is that Pennsy has the money to build the line, just not the dough to operate it.

[hsr_fan]

Why doesn't Pennsylvania just start its own commuter service between the Delaware Water Gap and Scranton, and forget about New Jersey? They already have the equipment...I could see Canadian Pacific #2317 hauling commuters through the Poconos!

[Lackawanna484]

There's been some discussion about beginning the commuter service in the Tobyhanna area, and running eastward to Hoboken. The Scranton service seeems to be a political concession by the county authority.

The largest crop of potential riders seem to be in the triangle between Del Water Gap, Pocono Lake and Tobyhanna.

[hsr_fan]

Am I to assume by my missing post that any mention of the Southern Tier in this thread is strictly forbidden?

[northjerseybuff]

Anyone hear Sen Rick Santorum today on Imus? He stated that they are trying to get a rail line from Hoboken to Scranton back in service. Took me off guard that he would mention it. Imus apparently stayed in the old station(now hotel) in Scranton, and had a bad experience. Sen Santorum stated he could soon take the train back to Scranton. we shall see

[sween]

The Scranton service seeems to be a political concession by the county authority

Hardly the case at all, hardly. Scranton, and Lackawanna County, have been undeniably the driving forces behind restoration of service right from the very beginning, and the beginning was well over twenty years ago. I'll say with total certainty that if it wasn't for "movers and shakers" in Scranton and Lackawanna County, there'd be no project at all, regardless of its present status. Every inch of paper work(and every ounce of effort)so far done on this restoration has been done with Hoboken to Scranton as the final result. The project is in serious trouble, no doubt about that, but if Scranton and Lackawanna County walked away from it tomorrow, it would simply evaporate.

Now, about Senator Santorum's comments. Just a joke? Nope, I don't think so. The good senator learned last week that PA Treasurer Bob Casey will be running against him as he tries to get re-elected to the US Senate. For those who don't know, Mr. Casey, son of late Governor Casey, is from, and lives in, the city of Scranton. Imus' "problems" in Scranton aside, I don't believe Santorum's remarks were hollow, I take them as a bit of early campaigning. FWIW, I'd say Casey, as senator, would be far more helpful with this restoration.

[JPhurst]

You'd be surprised how many politicians feel they have to go on Imus to reach their audience. The fact that a politician makes a promise of restoring service to Scranton doesn't mean that it is so. But the fact that he said it on Imus doesn't detract from it.

[Lackawanna484]

I'll clarify my comment to indicate that the vast number of current bus commuters from the Pike, Monroe, Lackawanna county area to NYC and eastern NJ come from the triangular area I mentioned in the earlier post.

While there are some commuters from Scranton to NYC/eastern NJ, and some from Luzerne county, the business case for restoring commuter rail sits on the number of people in the rapidly growing parts of Monroe and Pike. That's by far the biggest group of present commuters

Based also on the old Lackawanna schedules from the 1960s (which I think remain the best forecast of true 2010 travel time) the increase in travel time from Tobyhanna to Scranton puts the trip outside the tolerance of most travelers.

But, I could be proven wrong. We'll see.

[njt4172]

Speaking of the Lackawanna Cutoff... I just found out today that Jerry Turco the one time multi-millionare owner of the Cutoff's ROW just died on March 3rd at the age of 78.... Conrail had sold him the ROW back in 1985 for $1 million dollars. He had plans to build a restaurant on the top of the Delaware River Viaduct....

Steve

[henry6]

I'll clarify my comment to indicate that the vast number of current bus commuters from the Pike, Monroe, Lackawanna county area to NYC and eastern NJ come from the triangular area I mentioned in the earlier post.

While there are some commuters from Scranton to NYC/eastern NJ, and some from Luzerne county, the business case for restoring commuter rail sits on the number of people in the rapidly growing parts of Monroe and Pike. That's by far the biggest group of present commuters

Based also on the old Lackawanna schedules from the 1960s (which I think remain the best forecast of true 2010 travel time) the increase in travel time from Tobyhanna to Scranton puts the trip outside the tolerance of most travelers.


I don't think times will be a problem as there is expected to be good track up on the mountain with 79+ which the DL did not have there.

But projected passenger count should be better than what has been given since there are a lot of people in all directions from Scranton who probably not counted, especially north and west. First, there are quite a few park and ride lots in the Scranton-Wilkes Barre area for share riders, buses, and for several groups who have purchased or leased large vans for themselves. The curent 45 passenger projection from Scranton should not be a problem as there are a lot moe people around who were not considered by the survey group. Plus, there is a strong movement up in the Endless Mts (Lackawanna, Wayne, and Susquehanna Counties) and in Binghamton, NY who would like to couple up in Scranton which would provide quite a few more riders.
But, I could be proven wrong. We'll see.