Are Electrification Projects Dead for NJT

[Dcell]

Shirley cleaned up the snafus under Kirk and warrington. And she was the first to divert capital funds to hold fares steady.

[25Hz]

I'd say its dead for the near future. In the 90's, there was some serious consideration given to Main Bergen electrification, but it was later dismissed.

There was serious consideration of doing the entire system. To the point where they were selecting feeders and substation locations.

Warrington killed it all.

Prior to his arrival, they were damn serious about it, and likely would have started on it by now, if not for Warrington...

GO trasit up in ontario is going to be wiring up a few of its busiest/most heavily traveled lines, and at the moment they are 100% diesel. I believe lakeshore east, lakeshore west (hamilton), a new line to airport, and one other. There are also frameworks laid out to phase in something like 80% electrification if they choose to do so/get the money for.

I see no reason why NJT can't do their own version of a phased electrification expansion. Eventually we will have two rehabbed north river tunnels that don't need to be shut on weekends/overnight, and two new gateway tunnels. Would be nice to match this increase in capacity with some more electrified territory and new EMU's.

[morris&essex4ever]

Weren't the ALP 45's ordered so that further electrification wouldn't be necessary to bring one-seat rides to certain lines that didn't have it before?

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Weren't the ALP 45's ordered so that further electrification wouldn't be necessary to bring one-seat rides to certain lines that didn't have it before?

ALP-45's were ordered to allow for bringing every line into ARC without having to pre-pay for decades worth of electrification extensions before that happened. Not the same as expanding electrification.

If they plan on ordering a lot of bi-level EMU's in this next fleet plan that makes everything on the roster--coach or EMU--bi-level, it'll increase their motivation to infill electrification on lines that only have it partially. The Montclair-Boonton gap, and the last 15 miles of the NJCL. And maybe Dover to Port Morris Yard because they'll need the extra yard capacity before too long and ability to get any vehicle out there. Modest stuff that pays off by simplifying the equipment pool. If seating capacity is going to be more or less the same on an MLV coach vs. an MLV EMU, those ALP-45 hauled sets that have to go beyond Long Branch and Denville chew up extra equipment that could go elsewhere. If they had infill wires they could have a singular equipment pool running the whole NJCL (and it could be overlapping locals and expresses replicating exactly the same stops the current electrics vs. diesels make today, just run local or express out of one set of equipment instead of three). And have one common equipment pool run all M&E schedules that aren't going all the way to Hackettstown or splitting off to Andover on the Cutoff. With the freed-up coaches getting re-absorbed elsewhere in push-pull only territory and the freed-up ALP-45's possibly allowing a few more straight diesels to get retired by virtue of having to cover fewer routes.

I wonder if as this fleet plan takes shape you start to hear more of a pivot back to discussion of these long-deferred infill electrifications. Not introducing all-new electrification to lines that have zero of it...that's probably still in deep freeze...but finishing the job in the places where they're already two-thirds or more the way to the finish line. It would dovetail with the overarching goals of the new fleet plan to lower their operating costs by simplifying the equipment and its distribution.

[25Hz]

The only 2 places that i feel have a decent chance is the lower coast line and MBL gap if you wanna be really realistic about it. RVL sees a parade of trains in peak hours peak direction but i am not sure if you could warrant wires.


In foamer land it would be cool to get wires to bound brook (taking some creative license) would allow 45's to run to west trenton without needing to refuel every trip. Run revenue to hoboken via second waterfront connection, cut the loco off at hoboken and while that one goes to refuel, hook anther one back on. That is how far away i think new wires is, that we'd have those other things in place all ready. but, i think it would work swimmingly from a lay-person's perspective. West trenton and RVL equipment could run in the same pool, alternating between NYP, NWK, and HOB, depending on demand and "slot" availability. With gateway completed and 2 refurbished north river tunnels, i think RVL customers would be VERY happy, as well as lower coast line folks.

Back to reality....

Are there any clearance issues on the lower coast line where wires wouldnt fit? I think that's my only real question there.... and what about the gap on the MBL? You think NIMBY would be quiet enough to allow substations, cat towers, etc?

[zerovanity59]

The only 2 places that i feel have a decent chance is the lower coast line and MBL gap if you wanna be really realistic about it. RVL sees a parade of trains in peak hours peak direction but i am not sure if you could warrant wires.

Back to reality....

Are there any clearance issues on the lower coast line where wires wouldnt fit? I think that's my only real question there.... and what about the gap on the MBL? You think NIMBY would be quiet enough to allow substations, cat towers, etc?

The problem I see with Montclair-Booton is that the double tracking ends when the wires end. I think we need double tracking and increased service before adding the wires.

[Ken W2KB]

In foamer land it would be cool to get wires to bound brook (taking some creative license) would allow 45's to run to west trenton without needing to refuel every trip.

Back to reality....

.. and what about the gap on the MBL? You think NIMBY would be quiet enough to allow substations, cat towers, etc?

NJT did request a transmission capacity study of PSE&G, as part of the system electrification proposal mentioned above in this thread, for electrification to Raritan as well as to West Trenton from Bridgewater (where the Reading/CNJ junction was located). I think that it may have included west of Raritan, but JCP&L would have been requested if a substation was to be located in the west hanging on JCP&L transmission, so don't know that part for sure.

Considering the PSE&G Energy Strong and system reinforcement programs with a huge amount of 69kV subtransmission being constructed on tall polls along main roads including residential streets, and the 138kV to 230kV and 230kV to 500kV upgrades on many miles of overhead transmission rights of way, currently under construction/recently completed, NJT extension of electrification would pale in comparison. So, nimby opposition would likely not be a dealbreaker. It was not for PSE&G despite significant nimby opposition.

[25Hz]

They could put in cat structures that allowed space for a double track.

What about lower coast line? Will trains have to "coast" on the coast due to un-wired gaps? Low spots?

[CentralValleyRail]

They can barely afford to operate.

They aren't going to be electrifying any new lines in the next 20 years.

Amtrak is conveniently showing how to waste hundreds of millions of dollars already to "up the record for the Acela". They cantenary did need to be replaced but everything else that goes with upgrading above 150 is just for show.

Plus electric power is just as dirty as fuel.

Where the money should be spent is increasing service and improving already in-place infrastructure.

Weekend Service to Montclair is approaching it's 12th year of no-go. Montclair originally didn't want the project. But now they have "quiet" gates and are open to discussion. NJT is the one who is being "CHEAP" because they don't want to pay a train crew pennies to add an extra set up to MSU. It's all disgusting BS and us at other agencies just sit and laugh at them. (although the Montclair issue affects me directly)

And the person that made the reference to SEPTA that is true about the Upper Level Management, some of them I question whether they even graduated high school. However their service levels are acceptable and as someone who use to ride the R8 from Chestnut Hill for years I can attest to decent service.

[25Hz]

They can barely afford to operate.

They aren't going to be electrifying any new lines in the next 20 years.

Amtrak is conveniently showing how to waste hundreds of millions of dollars already to "up the record for the Acela". They cantenary did need to be replaced but everything else that goes with upgrading above 150 is just for show.

Plus electric power is just as dirty as fuel.

Where the money should be spent is increasing service and improving already in-place infrastructure.

Weekend Service to Montclair is approaching it's 12th year of no-go. Montclair originally didn't want the project. But now they have "quiet" gates and are open to discussion. NJT is the one who is being "CHEAP" because they don't want to pay a train crew pennies to add an extra set up to MSU. It's all disgusting BS and us at other agencies just sit and laugh at them. (although the Montclair issue affects me directly)

And the person that made the reference to SEPTA that is true about the Upper Level Management, some of them I question whether they even graduated high school. However their service levels are acceptable and as someone who use to ride the R8 from Chestnut Hill for years I can attest to decent service.

You realize that the NEC is mostly fed from hydroelectric, nuclear, renewable energy and other highly efficient "base load" sources, right?

You realize that aggregated electricity from the grid is cleaner than from a locomotive alternator/generator, right?

You realize that replacing frail 80 year old traction infrastructure and improving track & signaling has very little to do with the acela, right?

You realize that electric trains don't need to make refueling runs, which help increase equipment availability, right?

You realize that NJT wouldn't be using constant tension (or any kind of high speed wire) for any new electrification, right?

And don't even bring SEPTA up. They are irrelevant in this dept, unless you count removing traction catenary as "electrification project".

Whew....

[Ken W2KB]

They can barely afford to operate.

They aren't going to be electrifying any new lines in the next 20 years.

Amtrak is conveniently showing how to waste hundreds of millions of dollars already to "up the record for the Acela". They cantenary did need to be replaced but everything else that goes with upgrading above 150 is just for show.

Plus electric power is just as dirty as fuel.

Where the money should be spent is increasing service and improving already in-place infrastructure.

Weekend Service to Montclair is approaching it's 12th year of no-go. Montclair originally didn't want the project. But now they have "quiet" gates and are open to discussion. NJT is the one who is being "CHEAP" because they don't want to pay a train crew pennies to add an extra set up to MSU. It's all disgusting BS and us at other agencies just sit and laugh at them. (although the Montclair issue affects me directly)

And the person that made the reference to SEPTA that is true about the Upper Level Management, some of them I question whether they even graduated high school. However their service levels are acceptable and as someone who use to ride the R8 from Chestnut Hill for years I can attest to decent service.

You realize that the NEC is mostly fed from hydroelectric, nuclear, renewable energy and other highly efficient "base load" sources, right?

You realize that aggregated electricity from the grid is cleaner than from a locomotive alternator/generator, right?

You realize that replacing frail 80 year old traction infrastructure and improving track & signaling has very little to do with the acela, right?

You realize that electric trains don't need to make refueling runs, which help increase equipment availability, right?

You realize that NJT wouldn't be using constant tension (or any kind of high speed wire) for any new electrification, right?

And don't even bring SEPTA up. They are irrelevant in this dept, unless you count removing traction catenary as "electrification project".

Whew....

It is not just base load, but mid-merit load following and peaking depending on load. For example PSE&G's Metuchen rotary converter is scheduled by the Amtrak power dispatcher to follow train demand as it varies from hour to hour. Similar for the other converter stations and the water wheel. The energy sources in the PJM RTO area from which Amtrak gets all power south/west of NYC are primarily coal, natural gas and nuclear in that order and due to advanced emissions controls are much cleaner than individual diesel or gasoline engines operated on rails or roads. The other sources of electric energy are a very small percentage. Note that electricity in the grid cannot be traced to any particular generation source, except by purely financial accounting as it is all physically co-mingled in the world's largest machine, known as the Eastern Interconnection. Every electric generating station in the USA and part of Canada, other than the ERCOT part of Texas and more or less the Rocky Mountains and to the west, operate synchronously connected together to form the Eastern Interconnection. While Amtrak for part of its NEC load has dedicated hydro delivered by its 138KV 25Hz transmission, if it did not use it the energy would be used by others; so those others have to use except for nuclear, less clean sources. So it's really one huge melting pot of electrical capacity.

[morris&essex4ever]

They can barely afford to operate.

They aren't going to be electrifying any new lines in the next 20 years.

Amtrak is conveniently showing how to waste hundreds of millions of dollars already to "up the record for the Acela". They cantenary did need to be replaced but everything else that goes with upgrading above 150 is just for show.

Plus electric power is just as dirty as fuel.

Where the money should be spent is increasing service and improving already in-place infrastructure.

Weekend Service to Montclair is approaching it's 12th year of no-go. Montclair originally didn't want the project. But now they have "quiet" gates and are open to discussion. NJT is the one who is being "CHEAP" because they don't want to pay a train crew pennies to add an extra set up to MSU. It's all disgusting BS and us at other agencies just sit and laugh at them. (although the Montclair issue affects me directly)

And the person that made the reference to SEPTA that is true about the Upper Level Management, some of them I question whether they even graduated high school. However their service levels are acceptable and as someone who use to ride the R8 from Chestnut Hill for years I can attest to decent service.

You realize that the NEC is mostly fed from hydroelectric, nuclear, renewable energy and other highly efficient "base load" sources, right?

You realize that aggregated electricity from the grid is cleaner than from a locomotive alternator/generator, right?

You realize that replacing frail 80 year old traction infrastructure and improving track & signaling has very little to do with the acela, right?

You realize that electric trains don't need to make refueling runs, which help increase equipment availability, right?

You realize that NJT wouldn't be using constant tension (or any kind of high speed wire) for any new electrification, right?

And don't even bring SEPTA up. They are irrelevant in this dept, unless you count removing traction catenary as "electrification project".

Whew....

So the stretch from Matawan to Long Branch isn't constant tension?

[MattW]

Plus aren't most new light rail lines strung with constant-tension catenary now? I'm pretty sure Atlanta's new streetcar is and with a top speed of 35mph doesn't fit any definition of high speed.

[CentralValleyRail]

They can barely afford to operate.

They aren't going to be electrifying any new lines in the next 20 years.

Amtrak is conveniently showing how to waste hundreds of millions of dollars already to "up the record for the Acela". They cantenary did need to be replaced but everything else that goes with upgrading above 150 is just for show.

Plus electric power is just as dirty as fuel.

Where the money should be spent is increasing service and improving already in-place infrastructure.

Weekend Service to Montclair is approaching it's 12th year of no-go. Montclair originally didn't want the project. But now they have "quiet" gates and are open to discussion. NJT is the one who is being "CHEAP" because they don't want to pay a train crew pennies to add an extra set up to MSU. It's all disgusting BS and us at other agencies just sit and laugh at them. (although the Montclair issue affects me directly)

And the person that made the reference to SEPTA that is true about the Upper Level Management, some of them I question whether they even graduated high school. However their service levels are acceptable and as someone who use to ride the R8 from Chestnut Hill for years I can attest to decent service.

You realize that the NEC is mostly fed from hydroelectric, nuclear, renewable energy and other highly efficient "base load" sources, right?

You realize that aggregated electricity from the grid is cleaner than from a locomotive alternator/generator, right?

You realize that replacing frail 80 year old traction infrastructure and improving track & signaling has very little to do with the acela, right?

You realize that electric trains don't need to make refueling runs, which help increase equipment availability, right?

You realize that NJT wouldn't be using constant tension (or any kind of high speed wire) for any new electrification, right?

And don't even bring SEPTA up. They are irrelevant in this dept, unless you count removing traction catenary as "electrification project".

Whew....

1. Wasn't aware they use Hydro.

2. If your going to say Electric is clean it's not, what do you think they use coal for.....

3. I think I mentioned that the centenary needs to be replaced.

4. They snag wires all the time. Don't see that as a bonus. And don't say the new-tension wire doesn't snap.

5. Yes

6. I didn't bring up Septa someone else did and I answered.

My bit about Amtrak was side tracked off of my main point about NJT and about their spending. I can see your justification for Amtrak. And it's already being done whether it's worth all that $$ is debatable. However people dreaming about Electric Service on the Main and Bergen are dreaming.


Garbage in Garbage out.

[ebtmikado]

Centenary catenary? 100 year old catenary.