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Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #1287326  by Hawaiitiki
 
F40 wrote:
trainzrok wrote:Looks to me like it would defeat the purpose of Secaucus Jct. It's not like the transfer is THAT painful. God forbid someone has to get out of there seat and walk to the upper level.
With a mega-budget project such as the Gateway, wouldn't it be nice to upgrade the commuter experience for more passengers as well, instead of leaving them stuck in the early 2000's era of (transferring) commuting for the forseeable future because if this doesn't, what will? There are many folks on the Bergen lines who ask why isn't there a direct train into NYP.
I'd say that it is a fair estimate that about 40% of Main/Bergen/PJ/PVL riders STAY on the train past Secaucus. What about all of them if this loop comes to pass? The amount of people commuting to Hoboken and Jersey City is increasing every year. The number of folks commuting to the city is flat. NJT should be funding sending NJ residents into NJ employment centers. Let the feds, NY, or the PA pay for this loop, certainly not NJ/NJT.
 #1287336  by F40
 
Hawaiitiki wrote:
F40 wrote:
trainzrok wrote:Looks to me like it would defeat the purpose of Secaucus Jct. It's not like the transfer is THAT painful. God forbid someone has to get out of there seat and walk to the upper level.
With a mega-budget project such as the Gateway, wouldn't it be nice to upgrade the commuter experience for more passengers as well, instead of leaving them stuck in the early 2000's era of (transferring) commuting for the forseeable future because if this doesn't, what will? There are many folks on the Bergen lines who ask why isn't there a direct train into NYP.
I'd say that it is a fair estimate that about 40% of Main/Bergen/PJ/PVL riders STAY on the train past Secaucus. What about all of them if this loop comes to pass? The amount of people commuting to Hoboken and Jersey City is increasing every year. The number of folks commuting to the city is flat.


Having ridden these trains regularly during the non-peak and peak hours, I think 40% is a bit optimistic. Some of these may be taking the ferry or PATH to Lower Manhattan. Frequently, off-peak trains out of Hoboken often leave with few people, with most getting on at SEC. In any case, the loops will be there as a diverging route while trains can still physically be routed to HOB. The kinks will need to be worked out but they can devise some sort of scheduling where every other train goes directly to NY as an example.
NJT should be funding sending NJ residents into NJ employment centers. Let the feds, NY, or the PA pay for this loop, certainly not NJ/NJT.
In a perfect world, that would be true but sadly that is not because you look at where the demand is. Just by looking at the schedules, they favor those going into NYC many more hours of the day than those taking intra-state connections. They do not even guarantee connections which are not published in the timetable (although sometimes they do try) and most if not all of them are to/from NY. NJT by catering to the NYC crowd leaves NJ commuters on the back seat. This has been discussed before at length why there is not much incentive for businesses to open in other parts of the state (besides Hoboken and Newark) because the schedules simply are too difficult to work out (imagine having to schedule yourself tightly for 1 or 2 trains before waiting 45 minutes to an hour for the next one). Most people would rather drive in that case. In addition, having commuted to Hoboken in the past, those going toward Hoboken Terminal to catch a train or ferry is sizeably greater than those leaving. I do agree with you that NY should pay for the loop, though in NJT's current mantra, I would not be surprised if they pitch in to cater to their riders as well.
 #1287713  by nomis
 
F40, the "SEC South" station would be tracks that feed only the loop, but also take NWK bound and Midtown Direct trains as well. If you don't, 4 track SEC upper would become a bottleneck.
 #1287967  by Passaic River Rat
 
Wouldn't it be nice if New Jersey stopped spending so much to get commuters to New York and instead let businesses thrive in-state? Imagine there being plenty of high-paying, prosperous, and prestigious jobs in places like Newark, Paterson, Trenton, Jersey City and New Brunswick? There would be no need for loops or new tunnels, or that God-forsaken PABT.
 #1287987  by DanD3815
 
Nah..my company's warehouse is in Paterson..I'll take the Secaucus loop. One seat rides would be great!
 #1288001  by morris&essex4ever
 
Passaic River Rat wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if New Jersey stopped spending so much to get commuters to New York and instead let businesses thrive in-state? Imagine there being plenty of high-paying, prosperous, and prestigious jobs in places like Newark, Paterson, Trenton, Jersey City and New Brunswick? There would be no need for loops or new tunnels, or that God-forsaken PABT.
Yes it would be, but there's little political will to do it.
 #1288049  by Adirondacker
 
morris&essex4ever wrote:
Passaic River Rat wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if New Jersey stopped spending so much to get commuters to New York and instead let businesses thrive in-state? Imagine there being plenty of high-paying, prosperous, and prestigious jobs in places like Newark, Paterson, Trenton, Jersey City and New Brunswick? There would be no need for loops or new tunnels, or that God-forsaken PABT.
Yes it would be, but there's little political will to do it.
They spend lots of time and money doing just that. attracting jobs to New Jersey. Amazingly if you are on a train that is going to New York you can get off in Newark, Paterson or New Brunswick. Or in the case of Trenton get on somewhere in New Jersey when the train starts out in New York.
 #1288527  by F40
 
nomis wrote:F40, the "SEC South" station would be tracks that feed only the loop, but also take NWK bound and Midtown Direct trains as well. If you don't, 4 track SEC upper would become a bottleneck.
I see. I took it to mean that there would be a "SEC South" so that the southern tracks can access SEC. Unless they plan to increase trackage on the Main/Bergen lines, I imagine they would be diverging at some point from the lower level ROW so they wouldn't be "dedicated loop tracks" so to speak. From the drawings, it says that the loops could be a "future project" after the new SEC station is built. But if so, in what era..

As a note, just because you can get somewhere by train, does not mean you can feasibly make it a daily time-sensitive commute. Passengers traveling in the off-peak direction are at a noticeable disadvantage schedule-wise. In addition, you often need a car or mode of transport to get you from the station to your actual workplace. Most stations (Delawanna & New Brunswick, are probably exceptions) are not situated within walking distance of where people work. I do not imagine that "company shuttles" are that common (though Merck has a convenient shuttle to the Rahway station) and probably will only start if enough people have an incentive to take the train.
 #1344247  by Jeff Smith
 
In the news: LoHud

The headline concerns Metro North service operated by NJT, but it's really an NJT improvement. Still, I might post this in MNRR for grins and giggles... ;-)
Direct service to Penn Station envisioned from Rockland and Orange

WASHINGTON – Rail commuters from New York's Rockland and Orange counties and parts of Bergen County in New Jersey would get direct service to New York Penn Station as part of a larger plan for two new tunnels under the Hudson River, New York Sen. Chuck Schumer said Wednesday.

Those commuters on NJ Transit's Pascack Valley, Bergen County and Main lines and the Metro-North Port Jervis line currently switch trains in Secaucus to get to Penn Station in midtown Manhattan. Or they continue to Hoboken to switch to Path trains into lower Manhattan.

The $20 billion Gateway project for the new tunnels and improved approaches to them could include a $800 million Secaucus Loop taking riders directly to Penn Station, Schumer said.

Development of the Secaucus Loop would raise property values in Rockland and Orange counties and increase tourism from New York City to sites such as West Point, he predicted.
 #1344259  by Adirondacker
 
Hawaiitiki wrote:I'd say that it is a fair estimate that about 40% of Main/Bergen/PJ/PVL riders STAY on the train past Secaucus. What about all of them if this loop comes to pass?
They'll get on a train and go to Hoboken like the people along the Morris and Essex lines get on a train to go to Hoboken. Either arranging their schedule so they get on a train that goes directly to Hoboken or walking across the platform like Morris and Essex riders do when they can't get a train that is going directly to Hoboken.

I don't have old schedules. The claim in other threads is that the Morris and Essex lines have as much service to Hoboken as they did in the past. It makes sense, the people who took jobs on Wall Street because they had an easy commute on the train to Hoboken to get PATH didn't stop going to work.
Hawaiitiki wrote:The amount of people commuting to Hoboken and Jersey City is increasing every year. The number of folks commuting to the city is flat.
It's increasing into Manhattan every year too. Which is why we need new tunnels to Manhattan and the Port Authority wants to expand the bus terminal across Ninth Avenue. The Port Authority won't have to expand the bus terminal if we can entice people to go to their suburban train station and get on a train instead going to their suburban train station and getting on a bus.
 #1344533  by Hawaiitiki
 
Jeff Smith wrote:In the news: LoHud

The headline concerns Metro North service operated by NJT, but it's really an NJT improvement. Still, I might post this in MNRR for grins and giggles... ;-)
Direct service to Penn Station envisioned from Rockland and Orange



Development of the Secaucus Loop would raise property values in Rockland and Orange counties and increase tourism from New York City to sites such as West Point, he predicted.
Couldn't agree more with the property values portion of this. Will be great for our kids in 20 years when its completed.

But Tourism to West Point via exactly what line there Chuck? I don't think the USMA should be expecting any anti-auto Millenials walking 15 miles from Harriman or Salisbury Mills. Harriman State Park yes.
 #1344595  by Backshophoss
 
West Point is on the CSX River Line at the shoreline of the Hudson River,it's a bit of uphill hike from the station.
Good luck getting commuter service on CSX rails. :P
 #1344973  by mtuandrew
 
But residents of these counties already have one-seat rides into Manhattan! :P

I get the impression that the folks living out thataway felt they were getting a bargain by moving there before transit, but that transit isn't catching up to them.
 #1369387  by philipmartin
 
http://www.northjersey.com/news/timelin ... -1.1502306" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This story is about costs. For instance: "Construction of Secaucus Loop to enable a one-seat train ride from North Jersey into Manhattan. Cost: $1.3 billion."
We had several "one-seat rain rides" out of Penn Station in my younger days. LIRR: DD1 to Jamaica, hook on a steam engine, LV- GG1 to NK, hook on a diesel; PRR to Bay Head: GG1 to South Amboy, hook on a steamer.
 #1369483  by EuroStar
 
philipmartin wrote:http://www.northjersey.com/news/timelin ... -1.1502306
This story is about costs. For instance: "Construction of Secaucus Loop to enable a one-seat train ride from North Jersey into Manhattan. Cost: $1.3 billion."
This is interesting to see, but leaves more questions than answers. The cost seems really high for the loop itself which is on mostly existing ROW. I wonder what supporting structures are included in the estimate. I am assuming the new plans are the "old" plans for two track loop with one track merging into the short dead-end spur west of Secaucus and the other merging south of the existing tracks. Some form of viaduct/bridge is necessary in that area, but once they are at the level of the abandoned tracks below everything seems to be at grade and I would have expected it to be "cheap".