• Northern Branch HBLR (was DMU proposal)

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: Tadman, nick11a, Kaback9, ACeInTheHole

  by northjerseybuff
 
Its too bad I couldn't get over there to ask some questions.
If they have the plans for 12 stations..what more studies are now needed? seems like they know what the plan is.
Also..is there room for a yard in Tenafly? I wonder if towns like cresskill and closter would want this..since it is only a few more miles north to these towns

  by Irish Chieftain
 
Charlie7 wrote:Secaucus is on the east side of the Hackensack River
That's correct. However, there is no way for the Northern Branch to get to Secaucus (Junction is implied nowadays), unless it involves crossing the Hackensack River twice (such as has been proposed with the West Shore Line connector).
AndyB wrote:More than one rep seem to get unconfortable with me as I asked specific questions about equipment, service, passenger potential. They could not say for sure who would operate. NJ Transit or DBOM company
DBOMs will be resisted by NJTRO if the operation involves FRA-compatible operation—that is their territory. If NJT's going ahead with that DMU idea, then operation to Hoboken via West End ought to be standard, otherwise it'd be a waste of dough.
One NJT rep said that CSX owned this line. I thought NJT now owned it
Nope. Buying out the Bordentown line was one of the major capital expenses of the "River LINE"; and given the bad light that put the Whitman administration in, no subsequent administration in Trenton would be willing to go that route...

I'd like to know what exactly determined the ridership numbers, and how LRT would be five times higher than DMU? Should we convert the Northeast Corridor to LRT based on ridership projections of LRT versus commuter rail as well...?

I don't like the deception over the "one-seat ride to Manhattan" and never did. DMUs cannot and never will be able to go to NYP (and certainly not to this proposed eight-track 34th Street Station); if DMUs could go to Manhattan, then the CNJ would have been operating their RDCs into NY Penn Station since 1967.

As for DMUs per se, there are still advantages, so long as you operate them to the right destination, to wit bathrooms (at least on NJT, if used with a cab car such as on the PJ&B test), higher operating speeds (LRTs might be a bit quicker off the line but they won't reach 79 mph or faster), potential greater seat comfort, etc. (They could even use a bilevel cab car with 'em if they wanted...) However, the DMU "shuttle" to the end of the LRT line is not attractive (and NJ-ARP's resistance to this for the Northern versus their proposing it for the ex-CNJ Union County rail link bespeaks the need for a little position-clarification on some levels, WADR).

  by MickD
 
And the double level station makes it even more unattractive. A new station has to be built. Making it a three seat ride to Manhattan unless you connect by bus.

But then again why would someone bother with that when they can get a one seat ride by commuter bus to the same destination that they can get from a two with DMU? Andy, did anyone make that point at all?

  by AndyB
 
Irish Chieftain wrote:As for DMUs per se, there are still advantages, so long as you operate them to the right destination, to wit bathrooms (at least on NJT, if used with a cab car such as on the PJ&B test), higher operating speeds (LRTs might be a bit quicker off the line but they won't reach 79 mph or faster), potential greater seat comfort, etc
And operate them in the service they are designed for - heavy rail. Stations 5 miles or more apart where they can get up to that 79 MPH speed. No need for this type of equipment, with bathrooms, on a twelve mile line with twelve stations. In my opinion the best use of this equipment, DMU, would be increased off peak service and reverse comute service outbound in morning inbound in evening.
Mick D wrote:one seat ride by commuter bus
Yes, that was mentioned.
northjerseybuff wrote:is there room for a yard in Tenafly
I doubt it. But one of the speakers mentioned a 30 acre site that New York has just above the boarder and has offered it if lightrail were to go that far north. First time that I have heard New York is interested in having light rail go that far.

  by Irish Chieftain
 
operate them in the service they are designed for - heavy rail. Stations 5 miles or more apart where they can get up to that 79 MPH speed
Based on that logic, the Morristown Line through the Oranges, and the Montclair/Boonton Line through all of Montclair, should be light rail.

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not for the Tenafly-Tonnelle "Scoot" by any means. But there's far more to this picture than meets the eye.
But one of the speakers mentioned a 30 acre site that New York has just above the boarder and has offered it if lightrail were to go that far north. First time that I have heard New York is interested in having light rail go that far.
Who exactly offered it? Is it NY State property...? And why would it be contingent on light rail?

  by uzplayer
 
One wonders if they made a mistake from the beginning of extending light rail that far up. Perhaps the whole line can be changed over to a DMU operation? It actually makes sense to do that versus transferring from one extreme to another.. Then you have a one-seat ride to Hoboken.. Right?

  by JoeG
 
Thom Kleiner, the Orangetown (NY) Supervisor, has been adamantly opposed to any rail development in his town. Since Orangetown is where the Northern Branch goes when it leaves NJ, it would be hard to imagine support for a new railroad yard and rail service to Orangetown. I disagree with Mr Kleiner, but he keeps getting re-elected...

  by Jishnu
 
Irish Chieftain wrote:
operate them in the service they are designed for - heavy rail. Stations 5 miles or more apart where they can get up to that 79 MPH speed
Based on that logic, the Morristown Line through the Oranges, and the Montclair/Boonton Line through all of Montclair, should be light rail.

Don't misunderstand me; I'm not for the Tenafly-Tonnelle "Scoot" by any means. But there's far more to this picture than meets the eye.
The Morristown line and the Montclair-Boonton line through Montclair should use faster accelarating/decelarating EMU equipment for all stopping service. Doesn't necessarily have to become LRT using any logic. DMUs would probably not be optimal on the M&E or M-B lines for stopping service either. The equipment that is currently used on those lines is inappropriate, but operating efficiency and reduction in running times for trains has not been one of NJTransit's strong points - they basically don't care. Afterall they can always go and badger the powers that be to give them more money or allow them fare hikes - never mind the quality of service, so why should they care?

And yes IC, I agree with you that the bigger picture is more complex than meets the eye.
Last edited by Jishnu on Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by alewifebp
 
I still can't believe that they are proposing this fantasy of diesel equipment making it in to NYC. As we all know, ain't gonna happen. I see this as a herring to get at least some interest in it, and then it becomes the "oops, wheres NYC" option to paraphrase NJ-ARP.

The case of where to store whatever equipment end up on that part of the line is also a big problem. We all know how loved the yard is on the PVL. I can't see that part of NJ being very receptive to a diesel yard. And most everywhere along the route is a lot of development. Of course, this only points to the genuine need for such service, but it will provide another problem that this project will have to sustain.

I've said it before, but I do feel gipped. Being a life long Bergen County resident, I couldn't believe that with MOS-3 that there was actually a plan to get LRT in to Bergen. WOW, but as we all know, things that seem too good to be true probably are. Of course, we could also point to the original MOS-3 route, where relatively no problems would have been encountered getting LRV's up to Ridgefield, storing them, and powering up the substation at the Vince Lombardi.

As an aside, based on the traffic I saw today on the the extended service from Port Imperial to Tonnelle, I wouldn't exactly call this service a train to nowhere, as some outside of the railfan community might say. The LRT was a double-header SRO in to Bergenline. I guess those people were going nowhere.

  by AndyB
 
Who exactly offered it? Is it NY State property...? And why would it be contingent on light rail?
Now I wish I had the speakers name.
He did say that the site bordered a recycling center and a sewage treatment plant.
Based on that logic, the Morristown Line through the Oranges, and the Montclair/Boonton Line through all of Montclair, should be light rail.
Very old lines with station spacing based on the the main form of transportation to the station at the time. Foot power.
Most of the stations on todays HBLR are place using this original concept of transport.
Perhaps the whole line can be changed over to a DMU operation?
I questioned a NJT representatives at the meeting about using DLRV from River Line. I got the impression from one rep that he did not know what I was asking about (heavy rail person?) another said the DMU can run faster.

Again - This leads me to believe that that the Northern Project is in the hands of NJT heavy rail people. Don't get me wrong, I am not against heavy rail, get the cut-off back into service or MOM. Leave this type of operation to light rail.
  by Douglas John Bowen
 
Sure, New Jersey Transit talked a tough line from the outset of its Tenafly "information session" Wednesday, Feb. 22. But it took a beating at both the afternoon and evening sessions, as many people made clear their preference for light rail transit (LRT).

NJ-ARP won't be vain enough to say "most" people. But "many" made it clear (NJ-ARP representatives, both officially and as individuals, among them).

It's all over? Not based on the talk NJ-ARP sampled Saturday at the opening ceremonies of HBLRT in Union City. There, we suddenly heard vague references to the Northern Branch, save for New Jersey Transit's executive director, who did talk up the promised "one-seat ride." From other officials -- officials who do know the difference between LRT and DMU, NJ-ARP would pointedly note -- we heard generalities of "getting to Bergen."

Did those officials tailor their message because NJ-ARP was in the audience (and, in one case, on the podium)? Could be, but even that tells us the fight over the Northern Branch, far from over, is in fact just getting warmed up.
Last edited by Douglas John Bowen on Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by Frogger
 
Douglas John Bowen wrote:officials who do know the difference between LRT and DMU, NJ-ARP would pointedly note -- we heard generalities of "getting to Bergen."
the meadowlands is in Bergen don't forget. :-D
  by Douglas John Bowen
 
True, Xanadu lies in Bergen County, west of 50th Street Station.

But the officials were using "Bergen County communities" and "north" and other similar phrases, depending on the speaker -- enough so that NJ-ARP members present -- please note plural -- are reasonably sure that numerous speakers were, shall we say, "tailoring" or "couching" their phrases to avoid undue discomfort and/or commitment.

One or two speakers mentioned going and growing west (Xanadu) and north (Tenafly), so the distinction of routes was indeed made. But not of rail modes.

As we noted, New Jersey Transit's executive director specifically cited a Northern Branch DMU option, complete with "one-seat ride into Manhattan," as a package. Few, if any, other speakers went so far. Many of them -- trust us -- know the difference between DMU and LRT.
  by uzplayer
 
It just doesn't make sense to have a Heavy Rail system offload at a Light Rail system. They're two different animals. If anything, it should be the other way around.

Not to mention that it just would cause a variety of problems for people commuting either into New York City or around the area.

  by RichM
 
At far as the 30 acre storage yard site, I expect this is the former Route 303 Drive-In north of the PIP and east of 303. Sounds to me that someone was talking through his hat though. The Drive-In may have covered that much space, but a lot of it has been carved up by Orangetown for its DPW needs. This and the previously mentioned Orangetown supervisor's attitude means atht there are still many questions... but there's a lot of geaography from Tenafly to Orangeburg!
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