Flustered? I'm not sure how going back and forth with you proves that. Btw, "back and forth" implies a two way conversation. If you assume that I'm flustered because I keep responding wouldn't that mean you are equally flustered? I've never claimed to be an end all authority on the railroad industry here, but my status as an actual employee does mean I know more about what goes into planning, constructing, and operating a service than you do as a railfan.
As I said, I study the alternatives and come to a conclusion backed by the facts available to me. There are always additional pieces of information which should actually be public.. As NJT is a public entity, and with its studies falling under the "Freedom of Information Act," maybe you should start posting some links and pdf's to these studies to back up what you are saying.
cruiser939 wrote:I've already explained to you both publicly and via pm why the census data that you use as your only evidence is not proper. Essentially, all the massive spreadsheets that you linked to showed was that generally, people commuted from NW NJ towards NYC for work. Wow! That really adds a lot to this matter, as if everybody here didn't already know that. The majority of people in northern NJ share that same commuting habit. I guess it's time that we link every single town with a rail network because the spreadsheet said that people commute towards NYC.
Ok then... If you believe that you have access to better, more reliable data, then please feel free to post a direct link to this thread. Otherwise, stop quoting so-called informational pieces and backing it up by the fact that you are an "NJT employee." There are plenty of NJT employees on this forum that make a much more concise and logical argument versus you. Do you see me going back and forth with anyone else in this message board other than you? That should tell you something.
cruiser939 wrote:Foamer is not a derogatory term. I've only ever used it, or seen it used, to describe someone who is an excessively enthusiastic railfan. If there is some other meaning to the word that you know of that insults you, please tell me about it instead of being so mysterious with it. If you noticed, I remembered that you whined and complained last time I called you a foamer and have only referred to you as a railfan in this conversation AFAIK. See? I'm trying to play nice.
I stand corrected. Back then, the definition of a foamer on the internet was something different. Today, it's exactly what you mentioned.
cruiser939 wrote:Your arguments for this service is essentially that there's traffic on rt. 23 and that rail service would alleviate that traffic. My arguments against the project is essentially that any minor reduction in traffic on rt. 23 that might result from this project is not worth the hundreds of millions of dollars to the taxpayers; especially when weighed against other, more beneficial projects. I find it funny that you accuse me of being "self-centered" in my method of thinking when I'm the person saying that the project doesn't benefit enough people and that we should be considering projects that benefit the most amount of people; while you're the one whose all gung-ho on this project because you're from NW NJ and have idled in traffic more times than you can remember in rt.23. It sure seems like you are the person who is being self-centered to me with their support but what do I know?
If you have been paying attention, the reduction of traffic is not my only argument. Let me re-itemize them for you...something you have yet to even make.
1. It will take multiple cars off the road, helping to save the environment and keep places like Sussex County, Western Passaic County and Northern Morris County nice.
- While this will not be the true "silver bullet," this will assist. The bottom line is that in addition to this rail service, accessibility to other mass transit options such as bus service should be made readily available as well. One possibility is feeding bus service into rail and expanding service going to the Port Authority in concert with the rail service.
2. It will help save the infrastructure and hedge against potential concerns in expansion of roads.
- Politicians made it clear that they do not want to expand the roads going through the three counties in question. Environmental concerns and the "highlands act" also prevents this from happening. Bringing the railroad up to code versus expanding Route 23 will save millions. (Note: I am not an engineer...i'm a business professional... so I am making this assumption off the general data and information I have available to me..unlike you cruiser.)
3. It will provide access to economic opportunities to hundreds of thousands of commuters, who otherwise would not have access appropriately by driving.
- Right now, commuters goto Paterson, Newark, Hoboken / Jersey City and New York. Additionally, they also go to other places in Bergen and Passaic Counties. This service will provide an additional venue for accessing new opportunities, which might bring a shift in commuting habits and income coming into the counties in question.
4. It will help improve home values of the surrounding communities.
- Studies have shown that access to rail service (and specifically rail service in New Jersey) has had a positive effect on home values. With the amount of foreclosures throughout three counties, the business case is that providing access through an enhanced mass transit network in the area...starting with the restoration of the NYSW will make the area a more affordable and attractive place to live for the general commuter, thus taking housing inventory off the market and increasing the tax base of towns at a very critical time when government finances are on the minds of everyone. (In other words, it's a business investment...something which you do not seem to understand)
cruiser939 wrote:No, I'm not keen on taking them. They're stupid and do nothing to bolster your points. I challenge you to run face first into a brick wall repeatedly. This will demonstrate what trying to reason with you on rr.net is like. Keen on taking that one? I know there's traffic there, what will me sitting in it accomplish?
And here is why you do not garner any respect from me. If it were the fact that you presented your arguments like a normal person, i'd be more than happy to entertain your facts. But when you make remarks like this, that is where you lose my respect. Do you see anyone else other than yourself acting as belligerent as you?
cruiser939 wrote:Again, what will me sitting in traffic accomplish? If you have politicians doing it then why do you need me to? I don't influence what the politicians do. It's vice versa, they determine what I do. Give them your stupid challenges, not me; it's pointless.
You have absolutely no idea what goes on in community efforts and advocacy. I'm not going to explain it to you again. Do some research on the internet and then come back and see me.
cruiser939 wrote:Do you not see the waste in this? There are dozens of traffic problem stops all over the region. Will you be as blindly loyal to all of them as you are for this project? After all, I'm sure the census data will show that many people arer trying to commute towards NYC.
No.. I do not see any waste in conducting a study...provided that it is done on-time, on-budget and delivers some sort of improvement.
The census data is one of the only sources I have to go off of. Again, you mention there are many so-called hidden NJT studies. If you are so keen and claim to have the insider knowledge you have, then please, enlighten us. Otherwise, you are all talk.
cruiser939 wrote:To respond to your misguided first point, why would simply saying the words terrorist group imply that my picture should go up next to Bin Laden's? I didn't mention any by name nor did I comment on any's cause. I'm not sure where you're going with the whole security clearance thing but I'd venture a guess that most people who discuss terrorism in the world do not hold such a clearance. I'm not sure what your speculations on "other motives" could be but you sure come off sounding like the most idiotic person I've interacted with here.
I could say the same thing about you. In all the threads going back and forth with you, you have tried to berate people like myself and anyone else who wants to see this service restored only on the speculation that you "know" things because you are an "NJT employee." Do everyone a favor and get off your high horse.
As for your mention of terrorist groups on Facebook, i'm still taken aback that you could even bring this type of thing into conversation. Shows the type of person you are.
cruiser939 wrote:To your second point, if you are truly in the marketing field then you should know to be wary of social media. Yes, there can be good groups; just like there can be bad groups. I'm not saying that your group is bad but the fact there is a group with "fans" doesn't mean that your cause is a good one. That was my point about there being support for terrorist groups on facebook pages. Just because people click a "like" button shouldn't be interpreted as meaning that those people are correct or know what they're talking about. There are groups on facebook that both support and condemn Casey Anthony, are they both right or good? That a newspaper mentioned your page doesn't mean it's credible nor does it mean that it isn't. To illustrate my point, there's a facebook page supporting Muammar Gaddafi that has the exact same number of supporters as your group. Does this group hold the same weight as yours? What if some random journalist was to do a piece on the controversy and mentioned that there are those who actually support the guy and than mentioned this facebook page. Would that then give credibility to the cause as you claim getting mentioned in an article did for your group? Furthermore, just because someone "likes" you on facebook doesn't mean that they know wtf is even going on. I can choose to "like" a page about stem-cell research. In so doing can the author of the page site me as a knowledgeable person in the cause simply because I clicked a button. If so (which is what you seem to be doing) they would be sorely mistaken as I really don't know too much on the subject nor do I have any real opinions; all I did was click a button. You're reading way too much into this social media thing in my opinion.
I am very well aware of the issues with social media marketing...moreso then you will ever be.
The page was "liked" mostly by residents... so the credibility is there. Again, it takes a small initiative to start moving forward towards the bigger picture. There are some good people that want to volunteer their time to the cause...so I am not worried about getting a following for this. People will work to make this happen.
cruiser939 wrote:That person who you're talking about on the page said service should use the tracks under the "Lincoln Tunnel approach" which doesn't make sense. The only tracks around the Lincoln Tunnel approach is the HBLR. and the NYS&W owns no track in the area. They used to operate through the tunnel to Edgewater which is well north of the area. I'm not sure if this is what the person was trying to talk about but that tunnel is in dismal shape and getting it returned to service would be near impossible/wildly expensive which I know is of no concern to you. This just further goes to illustrate my point about not putting too much faith in people just because the are a member of a facebook group or click a "like" button.
Hang on one second... See, this WOULD be a logical argument from you IF you did not add the following remarks:
cruiser939 wrote:which I know is of no concern to you.
cruiser939 wrote:This just further goes to illustrate my point about not putting too much faith in people just because the are a member of a facebook group or click a "like" button.
While I will grant that the second remark to some extent might be valid, still, it adds to the negativity. Now... lets try this again without these two items.
cruiser939 wrote:That person who you're talking about on the page said service should use the tracks under the "Lincoln Tunnel approach" which doesn't make sense. The only tracks around the Lincoln Tunnel approach is the HBLR. and the NYS&W owns no track in the area. They used to operate through the tunnel to Edgewater which is well north of the area. I'm not sure if this is what the person was trying to talk about but that tunnel is in dismal shape and getting it returned to service would be near impossible/wildly expensive.
There... See how much better and more concise your point is?
With that said, I will respond to this point. Users always come up with fantasy alternatives...and there is nothing wrong with that. Let the public think about potential possibilities. Are they practical? Not always. In this instance, I agree that the approach would not make sense. Too expensive for the type of service being proposed and it will end up at a destination that would not make sense.