NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

[trollyFoamer]

You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job.

If monitoring traffic situations is part of your job,

Where did I say that monitoring traffic situations is part of my job?

It sure looks like you said it was part of your job in your first quote, which you also quoted here where you asked where you said it.

[uzplayer]

There are actually 4 viable destinations for Sussex, Passaic and Morris County residents living in the area of this railroad. They are:

Paterson
Newark
Jersey City / Hoboken
New York

In my journeys around Sussex County (and for that matter, if you want to refine the target even more, Vernon NJ,) I have encountered at least one person who engaged in a commute like this. For me, I commute to Paterson in the fall and winter (mainly evenings) and New York every 1-2 months.

If they schedule the service appropriately and have 4 trains each (Paterson, Newark, Jersey City / Hoboken / New York) going directly to, or stopping on the way to each of these destinations, I think it would work. This is only my speculation though.

If the service was to be along the lines of the original study, you wouldn't be able to reverse commute as the service was Eastbound only in the mornings and Westbound only in the evenings. Again if this was ever to happen, the original study had the trains hitting all stops along the Main Line after swinging onto it in Hawthorne, and atop of that, the initial study put the Sparta-Hoboken trip at 1 hour 43 minutes (the traffic isn't THAT bad.) They did provide 1 express run that bypassed everything except for Paterson on the Main Line and according to that schedule, it shaved a mere 13 min off it. Even whatever advances that have come about in the 16 years since wont shave much time off that run due to the geography of the line and like I said previously, there's not much room to put a significant amount of parking to make the stations effective.

I'd say kill Sparta as the terminus. The residents did not seem to want the station before and at the end, it would be a waste of time to convince them otherwise. Add to that, the time it would take to go into Hoboken as you mentioned. Stockholm will provide the appropriate service to Sussex County as a terminus. Vernon and Franklin residents will be able to access this station easy enough.

[amtrakowitz]

I'm real glad to know that you're "pounding" the ground out there drumming up support and that you have some fans on facebook. You do realize that some pretty hideous organizations such as terrorist groups have fans on facebook also right?

That's a new one, comparing railfans to terrorists.

[uzplayer]

Where did I say that monitoring traffic situations is part of my job?

Right here:

You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job.

...which signifies that you are are all talk.

All I said was that I am aware of where there are traffic problems around the state and that knowledge is part of what allows me to effectively do my job.

Nope. It does not. Re-read your response.

If you want to say rude things that you think will be hurtful to me but will help make your point, I encourage you to do so, either on here or by pm.

No need. I think you've proven just how flustered you can get by going back and forth with me here...thinking you know everything under the sun about the railroad industry. Employee or not, you are not the end-all authority.

I'm a big boy, I can handle being called names which apparently you can't. Every time the word railfan or foamer get's thrown out it's like the end of the world with you. You are always preaching "but it will help".

I once again ask you to refer back to the census data I posted on the other thread. I can't get any more clearer then that.

As for being called a "railfan" or "foamer." Railfan I am better with...albeit I am not a person who goes out of his way to take pictures or ride trains...but I like to keep up with the news in the field, look at the pictures and STUDY the alternatives out there to come to a conclusion on whether or not something will work.

Foamer is a derogatory term which has been around on the internet for quite a long time. I doubt you even know what it means.

Sooner or later you'll have to face the fact that just helping isn't always a good enough cause. Why is it that you think spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a service that will barely run and will take a few cars off the road is such a good idea? Because those few cars are no longer there so traffic will ease all of a sudden? Come on dude...

See, your problem cruiser is that you have a one-track mind. I have made my arguments for this service clear... several key points that are pretty compelling and have raw data to support them. I believe you (and only you) are skewed. The other NJT employees have either had logical thoughts, or have not tried to break the ideals of people. You like to try and deconstruct people's views...and if they happen to disagree with you, you continue to push it until all out arguments break out. Sometimes, it's fun... but there comes a time where a person like you needs to look beyond the general information you have, and challenge your perceptions. You accuse me of foaming at every project and not forming logical arguments, I can accuse you of being rigid and self-centered in your own method of thinking... and while I don't expect people on this board to just come out and agree with it, i'm sure there are people that see it.

What's ironic is that many of the projects listed that you don't support are actually good projects that have huge benefits. I know it shouldn't come as a surprise to me since you throw your heart and soul behind every stupid little rinky-dink project that get's mentioned, but perhaps there's something greater to be learned here. Maybe you are like the anti-progress railfan? That'd make you somewhat unique I guess.

There are benefits with these projects. I disagree with implementation, terminus, etc. ARC was one big example which bluntly, I am glad was cancelled...There was no support from New York City for this, the terminus would have been far away from critical business centers, and the price tag and terms for the State of New Jersey would have been too high. Economic benefits? Unknown...as we are officially in a double dip recession (or depending on who you talk to, we never got out of the first recession) and I doubt that capacity would have met demand quickly enough to off-set the costs.

Jiminy Cricket! Will you stop with the stupid challenges already!

Why? Not keen on taking them?

I know there's traffic there, what will me sitting in it accomplish?

If it were just you, nothing. If it were you, along with politicians, citizens, the North Jersey Transportation Planning Authority, the NJ Association of Railroad Passengers, Chambers of Commerce, and of course, historical societies, then we have a chance.

There's traffic all over the state. Should silly little services have money thrown at them everywhere there is traffic now?

If the study is warranted, then yes.

I'm real glad to know that you're "pounding" the ground out there drumming up support and that you have some fans on facebook. You do realize that some pretty hideous organizations such as terrorist groups have fans on facebook also right? Having fans there doesn't really add credibility. It's reveals a lot about you though that you think the support of 40 random people who demonstrate that ability to click a button trumps the experience of people who do this as a profession...

First of all, the mere fact that you would mention terrorist groups on Facebook, tells me your picture should be right up there with Bin Laden. Why would you even bother mentioning these groups publicly is beyond me. At first, I thought maybe you had some sort of security clearance, but even a person with security clearance (which I know quite a number of) would exercise more restraint then you in this instance. I can speculate on other motives, but I digress.

Second of all, I am going to be blunt...as I am in the Marketing field, what you said about credibility on Facebook is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If Social Media outlets such as Facebook did not generate some sort of credibility for community groups, volunteer organizations, and name brands, then people like myself would not be using them to further causes. There are dark sides to Social Media (i.e. riots in London) but in the end, social media is there for organizations and movements to build credibility and get the word out faster. The Facebook page in question was actually mentioned in an article...which builds enough credibility in my opinion.

Who says it has to run into Hoboken? Are you honestly saying that you think it shouldn't? If so, you might be more misguided than I originally thought. Where (in your great service planning experience of course) would you have this service terminate and how, if it was anywhere other than Hoboken, would it make sense?

I will correct myself in this instance. It should run and terminate at the city centers where it will provide the most benefit...Hoboken being one. Someone on the Facebook page mentioned something about tracks under the Lincoln Tunnel that are still in tact and ultimately, could be used for this purpose to make a park and ride style station, but I think it is far fetched.

In this instance, I am not familiar with the rules centering on having NJT employees versus NYSW employees run the trains. I do know that NJT has a 99 year easement on the tracks (if I remember correctly) so running service on the NYSW is possible for NJT employees...

[Roadgeek Adam]

I would bone up on the history of Route 23 before you say that we can't expand it. For a time during the 50s and 60s, there were plans to make Route 23 a freeway from Interstate 287 in Piscataway to High Point. Clearly it didn't happen. Because of the proposals in the 50s and the 60s, and outrage 95% of the projects got, Route 23's major expansion as a freeway from Piscataway to Verona to Wayne to Wantage to High Point never happened. Route 14, a Butler - NY freeway never happened. Many people hated most of the ideas, or their ideas just weren't economically possible.

A lot of the people that complain on the traffic for Route 15, Route 23, Interstate 78 kind of have to realize, you're predecessor generation opposed it then and spoiled it for the rest, or the planners were way over their head. Why does Interstate 95 just end at U.S. Route 1 and suddenly became Interstate 295? Blame NIMBYs. Its over 50 years since the proposal made, and the project made to solve that is facing problems. If you're in the traffic on Route 23, which I have never seen much of along its route pardoning one Saturday in Wayne once, don't blame NJ Transit for not helping the situation, blame the people of the past and the planners.

What I find ironic, is I've been stuck in more traffic jams on Route 15 in the reverse direction, heading away from the areas in question. I'd like to see personally more proof that Route 15 and Route 23 are dyingly in need of rail traffic.

Actually, the Highlands Act prevents any further expansion of highways such as Route 23 through Sussex County. All the politicians are against it as well.

On a side note, they are also unsure about this service as well. So either way, it's an uphill battle.

I don't think you got the jist of what I said. The reason 23 isn't wider than it is now and has more traffic is due to an influence of NIMBYs and overly-inflated project ideas. Making NJ Transit go out of its way to solve a problem that didn't get solved 40+ years ago isn't effective.

[cjvrr]

I been biting my tounge on this thread because of my role as traffic engineer at the County requesting the study, but I just can't keeping doing so...

Cruiser, I agree you have been dead on with most of your opinions and have backed them up with good facts.

Traffic counts in all areas of Morris County are down anywhere from 10-20% over what they were in 2006-2007. So the commute is actual better than it has been in the past. This is holding true for other areas of NJ too. Thank the poor economy for that.

I would go on to add that bus service is already available from Newfoundland, so why not beef up bus service along the route? Much cheaper to implement quickly and it would gauge the need for any additional service. Heck you could even add bus pre-emption to the traffic signals along the Route 23 to speed things along. Cost is perhaps, $5,000 per signal.

Who is to say that people in Sussex or western Morris would need or use the service? For me I would love to be able to take mass transit from my home in Butler to Morristown, but I can't without going thru Wayne / Willowbrook first. At that point I will take my car. That is the problem with any type of rail service its tied to a specific route that commuters may not be following.

Then I have the opinion that says if you decided to take a job in NYC and buy a home in Sussex or the Poconos than tough luck...you need to take into account the commute prior to moving to an area. And once you do move don't look to others to subsidize your commute.

[trollyFoamer]

Foamer is a derogatory term

unfortunately with me it's accurate. Excuse me now, I have to wipe my mouth frequently otherwise I drool on the keyboard.
What I'd like to know is what's a roadgeek, as in Roadgeekadam?

[Roadgeek Adam]

Foamer is a derogatory term

unfortunately with me it's accurate. Excuse me now, I have to wipe my mouth frequently otherwise I drool on the keyboard.
What I'd like to know is what's a roadgeek, as in Roadgeekadam?

Railfan equivalent to highways.

[amtrakowitz]

I don't think you got the (g)ist of what I said. The reason 23 isn't wider than it is now and has more traffic is due to an influence of NIMBYs and overly-inflated project ideas. Making NJ Transit go out of its way to solve a problem that didn't get solved 40+ years ago isn't effective

Even if NJ 23 was five lanes wide in each direction up to the intersection with I-84 on the Montague/Port Jervis border, that won't solve any traffic problems either, and it'd cost way more money to implement than a rail link (even with the way NJT inflates costs, and that's no condoning of same).

Besides, IINM, rail links are not presented as solutions to traffic problems, but alternatives.

[cjvrr]

But, most highways can move 2,000 vehicles per lane per hour, so at 5 lanes in each direction you could move 10,000 vehicles per hour! I don't think any train service to Sussex would come close to that.

I don't think you got the (g)ist of what I said. The reason 23 isn't wider than it is now and has more traffic is due to an influence of NIMBYs and overly-inflated project ideas. Making NJ Transit go out of its way to solve a problem that didn't get solved 40+ years ago isn't effective

Even if NJ 23 was five lanes wide in each direction up to the intersection with I-84 on the Montague/Port Jervis border, that won't solve any traffic problems either, and it'd cost way more money to implement than a rail link (even with the way NJT inflates costs, and that's no condoning of same).

Besides, IINM, rail links are not presented as solutions to traffic problems, but alternatives.

[michaelk]

......as we are officially in a double dip recession (or depending on who you talk to, we never got out of the first recession) ......

exactly where does this "fact" come from?

calls into question the rest of what you post....

here's a good explanation about how it can't at all be "official"-
http://bonddad.blogspot.com/2011/08/dat ... ssion.html

MAYBE we're heading into a double dip. Maybe people feel like has been one big long recession. But the people that "officially" decide such things do so AFTER that fact and as of July there is no basis to proclaim it.

[uzplayer]

I been biting my tounge on this thread because of my role as traffic engineer at the County requesting the study, but I just can't keeping doing so...

Cruiser, I agree you have been dead on with most of your opinions and have backed them up with good facts.

Traffic counts in all areas of Morris County are down anywhere from 10-20% over what they were in 2006-2007. So the commute is actual better than it has been in the past. This is holding true for other areas of NJ too. Thank the poor economy for that.

I would go on to add that bus service is already available from Newfoundland, so why not beef up bus service along the route? Much cheaper to implement quickly and it would gauge the need for any additional service. Heck you could even add bus pre-emption to the traffic signals along the Route 23 to speed things along. Cost is perhaps, $5,000 per signal.

Who is to say that people in Sussex or western Morris would need or use the service? For me I would love to be able to take mass transit from my home in Butler to Morristown, but I can't without going thru Wayne / Willowbrook first. At that point I will take my car. That is the problem with any type of rail service its tied to a specific route that commuters may not be following.

Then I have the opinion that says if you decided to take a job in NYC and buy a home in Sussex or the Poconos than tough luck...you need to take into account the commute prior to moving to an area. And once you do move don't look to others to subsidize your commute.

cjvrr... I have yet to see this argument come from cruiser. Maybe his belligerence is getting in the way of stating the facts, and you can read through them better then I can. But I am not seeing where he actually posts facts and information against the service. But I digress... Lets get back to the facts.

Morris County is only one area covered by Route 23...To get a better understanding of the patterns, you have to look at traffic patterns in Sussex and Passaic Counties. The call for the study also cites that traffic is only going to get worse on this road, and that expansion of Route 23 is out of the question and...in fact, illegal. The Highlands Act has prevented expansion of Route 23 in Sussex County. Improvements on the other hand (i.e. repaving, etc) is allowed.

Bus service MIGHT provide a fix to the problem if executed properly. The challenge is scheduling . Plus, there is for some reason a dislike to bus service in Vernon NJ. Several companies have tried to offer direct service to New York from Vernon...all have pulled out in months. Additionally, they also have a local shuttle in Vernon...a van that transports people from one area to these bus services, but due to lack of advertising...including the lack of bus stop signs, it is not going well. It's a bit sad actually. If they advertised it better and put better identifiers for where the bus stops are, they would more then likely get more passengers.

Train service, terminating at Stockholm, will probably help to beef up and provide access to those economic opportunities. Again, it's not a silver bullet to solve the entire problem, but it will help to augment the capacity of a road that can not be expanded.

As for the people driving to their destination, there are people that do end up in Paterson, Newark and New York from Sussex, Morris and Passaic Counties. Others end up in places like Bergen County, and closer areas only because they do not want to drive the extra mile to get to these destinations. That's why I believe that a uniform train service might help bring some new economic opportunities to the commuting population.

[uzplayer]

Foamer is a derogatory term

unfortunately with me it's accurate. Excuse me now, I have to wipe my mouth frequently otherwise I drool on the keyboard.
What I'd like to know is what's a roadgeek, as in Roadgeekadam?

LOL

[amtrakowitz]

But, most highways can move 2,000 vehicles per lane per hour, so at 5 lanes in each direction you could move 10,000 vehicles per hour! I don't think any train service to Sussex would come close to that

You could move that many, but at what average speed (especially thanks to traffic lights and merges with I-80 and NJ-24/I-78)? Does the Northeast Corridor move ten thousand vehicles per hour, or that many revenue seats? (IIRC, it moves over double that number in revenue seats.) Besides, nobody's calling for NJ 23 to be closed and everyone has to ride the train; that'd be utterly retrograde in terms of technology. Ten thousand vehicles per hour is a lot in terms of thermodynamic waste, and I wouldn't want to subsidize that; think about where those vehicles have to go, what with funneling into a mere three Hudson River crossings after funneling into what amounts to two interstate highway arteries.

[cruiser939]

You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job.

If monitoring traffic situations is part of your job,

Where did I say that monitoring traffic situations is part of my job?

It sure looks like you said it was part of your job in your first quote, which you also quoted here where you asked where you said it.

Please do not selectively quote me and uzplayer pay attention here too. What I've said and what you assumed are to separate things. I said "You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job." Does the word monitor appear there at all? No. Therefore when when you or uzplayer thinks that I'm saying that monitoring traffic patterns is part of my job, you are both wrong. I even further clarified what I meant by adding "All I said was that I am aware of where there are traffic problems around the state and that knowledge is part of what allows me to effectively do my job". Somehow though, you conveniently left that part out of your post and that isn't good enough for uzplayer because he still assumes that I said monitor somewhere in my initial response. Oh well...