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  • NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

 #959708  by kman73
 
Rebuild the line west of Sparta on the old ROW, put yard at Warbasse Jct.

If you build it, they will come.
 #959751  by CarterB
 
PortJervis, I totally agree about the lack of potential ridership, and am not an advocate of the NYS&W redux vis a vis much other more worthy projects such as the cutoff and MOM. Only was commenting on the 'ifs' of alternative commuter zones on that line.
 #959871  by uzplayer
 
cruiser939 wrote: Your problem is that you confuse realism for negativism; I'm the former. Look at the political and economic environment around us right now and try and justify this project based on the affected population and it's possible benefits. I know you'll say something like "take what you can get" or "if you build it, passengers will come" but I can't share your sentiments based on my knowledge. I've already said that my support is inconsequential to this. Projects are determined by politicians, not individuals at HQ. If/when you digest that, you will have a much better understanding of how stuff works here. It doesn't matter how much practical use a project has, if a politician thinks it'll gain them some support, well then that's just what they'll do. Look at that abomination that was (and still technically is) the Passaic-Bergen Line. I've never been accused of being in this business too long before. I'm sure those on this board who know me are probably all laughing at that notion. I believe there is much more to be gained from improving existing service as opposed to investing funds into this project.
Being a realist is one thing...but in all the time I have seen you post in the NJT forums, you just cast a doubt on every single project...and it's not that I do not always disagree with you, but at the end I have to ask, what projects do you actually support?

As for politics, you are right. Politicians do have an influence on this...and as citizens, if the politicians do not exercise the will of the citizen, we express that at the ballot box.

This may not be a silver bullet for fixing the traffic problems of Northwest NJ, but it will help make things better. The support outside of one town is there for sure. There are a lot of environmental constraints with expanding the roads in Sussex and Western Passaic / Northern Morris County which at the end, makes rail service a more viable option. It's already there, needs some minor repairs and can provide a service...no matter who runs it (private or public.)
 #960130  by cruiser939
 
jmp883 wrote:If the trains don't carry enough people to at least break even, if not make an actual profit, then you can consider the service as being unsuccessful.
If that's the measure then there is no way this will successful. This service will not break even let alone make a profit. The only rail line that NJT operates that makes an actual profit is the NEC.
 #960132  by cruiser939
 
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote: Your problem is that you confuse realism for negativism; I'm the former. Look at the political and economic environment around us right now and try and justify this project based on the affected population and it's possible benefits. I know you'll say something like "take what you can get" or "if you build it, passengers will come" but I can't share your sentiments based on my knowledge. I've already said that my support is inconsequential to this. Projects are determined by politicians, not individuals at HQ. If/when you digest that, you will have a much better understanding of how stuff works here. It doesn't matter how much practical use a project has, if a politician thinks it'll gain them some support, well then that's just what they'll do. Look at that abomination that was (and still technically is) the Passaic-Bergen Line. I've never been accused of being in this business too long before. I'm sure those on this board who know me are probably all laughing at that notion. I believe there is much more to be gained from improving existing service as opposed to investing funds into this project.
Being a realist is one thing...but in all the time I have seen you post in the NJT forums, you just cast a doubt on every single project...and it's not that I do not always disagree with you, but at the end I have to ask, what projects do you actually support?
We've had exhausting conversations about this via pm's. I support any project that adds a significant number of riders to the system or greatly improves the reliability of already existing service so that it can justify the huge outlay of money. Specifically, I support Northern Branch, MOM, and anything that can help the bottleneck between Newark and NYC. The problem you have is that you just blindly support anything that gets proposed and then I have to be "the bad guy" who comes along and tells you that the benefits don't justify the huge waste of money.
uzplayer wrote:As for politics, you are right. Politicians do have an influence on this...and as citizens, if the politicians do not exercise the will of the citizen, we express that at the ballot box.
Again, you are assuming that just because you think it's a super cool project, everyone else does also. If you're correct, then starting the Pro-NYS&W passenger restoration party would be a grand idea. Let us know how that goes.
uzplayer wrote:This may not be a silver bullet for fixing the traffic problems of Northwest NJ, but it will help make things better. The support outside of one town is there for sure. There are a lot of environmental constraints with expanding the roads in Sussex and Western Passaic / Northern Morris County which at the end, makes rail service a more viable option. It's already there, needs some minor repairs and can provide a service...no matter who runs it (private or public.)
I know we've been over this in another thread, but any restoration of passenger service would not be privately run.
 #960232  by jmp883
 
Cruiser939 wrote:
The problem you have is that you just blindly support anything that gets proposed and then I have to be "the bad guy" who comes along and tells you that the benefits don't justify the huge waste of money.
I don't necessarily see you as a bad guy. While I'm a railfan I'm also a realist in that I don't want to see money wasted on a service that is going to have little, or no, positive impact on the commuting public. That being said, maybe you're right, maybe the NYSW option is a losing proposition. However I do stand by my call for some type of service, rail or bus, to augment the highways in northwestern NJ. Something has to be done...and it has to be done soon. As people move farther away from the NYC metro area for their slice of the American Dream more and more land will be taken, and more and more NIMBY's will be created. It's only going to get tougher to institute new commuter services of any type, anywhere in northern NJ. The railroads, the public, and the politicians need to bite the bullet now in order to prevent all of northern NJ from becoming one giant parking lot every morning and afternoon.
 #961328  by uzplayer
 
cruiser939 wrote:We've had exhausting conversations about this via pm's. I support any project that adds a significant number of riders to the system or greatly improves the reliability of already existing service so that it can justify the huge outlay of money. Specifically, I support Northern Branch, MOM, and anything that can help the bottleneck between Newark and NYC. The problem you have is that you just blindly support anything that gets proposed and then I have to be "the bad guy" who comes along and tells you that the benefits don't justify the huge waste of money.
Ok... If you do in fact support projects that in your own words "adds a significant number of riders to the system" put your mouth where your money is. Take one weekday morning off, start driving from Route 23 in Franklin NJ to points in Paterson, Newark, Jersey City and New York, NY...Experience the traffic. In the meanwhile, while you are stuck on Route 23, take a look at the tracks that parallel the road...see how they are just sitting there, with maybe one or two freight trains going over them per week.

Then read up on why the counties cannot expand Route 23...

You'll get the idea from there.
cruiser939 wrote:Again, you are assuming that just because you think it's a super cool project, everyone else does also. If you're correct, then starting the Pro-NYS&W passenger restoration party would be a grand idea. Let us know how that goes.
This is a the third time you have accused me of speaking as a railfan. I'm not doing this because this is a "super cool" project. I am doing this because I firmly believe that this will improve the lives of countless individuals, and provide access to thousands of economic opportunities not otherwise easily accessible. I have provided links to data in the past on commuting behaviors from Northwest NJ, as well as the justifications. As you have told me to search for your responses, I suggest that you do the same before jumping to conclusions again.

And further to our PM's as you remember, I am not a normal railfan. I am a business professional who wants access to opportunity. For me, sitting on a train (delayed or not) working on a laptop sure as hell beats sitting on a bus or sitting in traffic on Route 23 every morning. Maybe if you were in our situation, you'd change your tune.
cruiser939 wrote:I know we've been over this in another thread, but any restoration of passenger service would not be privately run.
A "private / public" partnership is different then having a private entity run the service. For the record, I agree with this. While I am a capitalist and like to see small businesses succeed, I do believe that in this situation, you cannot come up with a creative enough solution to solve this problem. Now if you had a private / public partnership with a transit authority established, bringing in contributions from the local towns and hiring a company like NYSW to run the service, then it might work.
 #961369  by SecaucusJunction
 
Lets all just agree that while this might be a good idea, it's never going to happen and move on.
 #961379  by uzplayer
 
SecaucusJunction wrote:Lets all just agree that while this might be a good idea, it's never going to happen and move on.
You never know.
 #961386  by njtmnrrbuff
 
I support this project, and on the business end, it would be benefial because it would take cars off of the roads, especially 23. As far as the days that it runs, probably weekday, initially would be better, first, since most people would be using this service to and from work in the city, JC, and HOB.
 #961565  by northjerseybuff
 
Of course it would be beneficial! If you build it they will come. Don't over build and do it correctly! run it rush hour only! start simple..2 train sets east and 2 west! do a trial run! see if it catches on!
 #961609  by Steve F45
 
2 trains? maybe 6 for both am and pm rush hours. Do it just like the PVL was with rush hour service. No weekend service during the first year of service unless it is necessary due to demand.
 #961623  by SecaucusJunction
 
If I remember correctly, back when this project was first brought up in the 90's, there was supposed to be 5 trains per day in each direction during rush hour. There was even a schedule posted somewhere on the internet. I believe the trains were to make local stops all the way to Hawthorne before connecting to the Main Line at Suscon.
 #961647  by uzplayer
 
There are actually 4 viable destinations for Sussex, Passaic and Morris County residents living in the area of this railroad. They are:

Paterson
Newark
Jersey City / Hoboken
New York

In my journeys around Sussex County (and for that matter, if you want to refine the target even more, Vernon NJ,) I have encountered at least one person who engaged in a commute like this. For me, I commute to Paterson in the fall and winter (mainly evenings) and New York every 1-2 months.

If they schedule the service appropriately and have 4 trains each (Paterson, Newark, Jersey City / Hoboken / New York) going directly to, or stopping on the way to each of these destinations, I think it would work. This is only my speculation though.
 #961711  by cruiser939
 
njt/mnrrbuff wrote:I support this project, and on the business end, it would be benefial because it would take cars off of the roads, especially 23. As far as the days that it runs, probably weekday, initially would be better, first, since most people would be using this service to and from work in the city, JC, and HOB.
I'm glad that you support this project. NJT had been dragging their feet a little bit because we weren't sure where you stood on the issue...
How long did it take you to determine that running this service on the weekdays might be better than running it on the weekends?
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