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  • One-Seat Ride to NYC on Raritan Valley Line

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #1123718  by lirr42
 
Welcome to Railroad.net and thanks for your report, Mr. Wagenblast.

But for now a large chunk of the ALP-45DP's (the dual-mode engines that can do both diesel and electric running) are currently being used heavily on the Gladstone-Hoboken trains. During Hurricane Sandy, one of the substations that feeds power to Hoboken Terminal was severely damaged, meaning there is no overhead wire power in Hoboken. The main electric trains that bear the brunt of that outage come off the Gladstone Branch (as the other trains mostly come off of diesel lines).

So to remedy this, they have been primarily using ALP-45DP's on these runs, in electric mode between Gladstone and Newark, then in diesel mode between Newark and Hoboken. One may think, well why can't they just use plain diesels then? Well, two things: 1) the plain diesels have trouble keeping a schedule that is normally kept by much faster accelerating and more agile MU's (especially considering the stations are fairly close together), and 2) the plain diesels are louder and would annoy the residents who already whine and complain about menial things anyway.

Currently, there are a couple kinks in the one-seat ride plan, some of them alluded to in your report, that have to be settled before there are any RVL one-seat rides:
  1. No track space in New York Penn. NYP is where all of these people want to go, however there is 0 room in the inn. The main problem of getting into Penn Station is that the tunnels leading to New York Penn (the North River Tubes) only have 2 tracks, one for each direction. Since the addition of MidTOWN Direct trains and all like that, there is no more space to squeeze any more trains into NYP. So to get RVL trains into NYP, you would have to take another train out and send it someplace else. The only possible option (kinda) is to send some MidTOWN Direct trains (trains from the Morris & Essex Lines or the Montclair/Booton Line that go to NYP) to Hoboken, where they can transfer to the PATH and all to New York. Taking trains off the NEC/NJCL and sending them to Hoboekn would require use of the Waterfront Connection, which is currently at capacity as well. Programs like ARC and Gateway which plan to build two new tunnels to supplement the existing ones (thus providing 4 sub-Hudson tunnels) would allow a whole bunch of new space for RVL trains and the like. NYP is even crammed on the Weekends. The weekend schedules have to be set up in such a way that they can only use 1 tunnel if necessary (be it track work or what have you). Therefore, the schedules have to be contorted in such a way to allow this, and all in all there isn't any space for RVL trains there too (despite there being less trains).
  2. No flyover at HUNTER. HUNTER interlocking is where Raritan Valley Line trains split or join the Northeast Corridor for the quick trip to Newark Penn Station. Currently, there is effectively only one way on/off the corridor and that is on the west side of all the tracks. For a train to go east towards New York Penn Station, the train would have to cross over 4-6 tracks of the very busy corridor to get all the way over to the correct side. During rush hour, a move like this would be far too time-consuming and any delays could cause big problems. Current operations on the RVL don't necessarily necessitate a flyover at HUNTER. The eastbound (inbound) trains just sneak along the "wrong" side of the tracks for the short distance between HUNTER and track 5 of Newark Penn. Something like that's okay for the distance to NWK, but all the way to NYP like that is a no-no. So before any serious amount of trains go there, a "flyover" track (which is a track that goes over/under the NEC tracks to the other side) is necessary. Currently the HUNTER is set up like a highway, with cars going in both directions. Currently we have this exit which only has access to one side of the highway. To get to this exit from the other side of the highway we have to go the wrong way on the other side for a little while (a bad idea). A flyover is basically like another exit being built on your side of the highway, so both sides have quick and easy access to the road.
  3. Amtrak has not cleared the ALP-45DP's for use on the NEC. The Northeast Corridor, including Newark and New York Penn Stations, is owned by Amtrak. And when they're on Amtrak's tracks, we have to play by Amtrak's rules. Currently Amtrak has not OK'ed the use of ALP-45DP's on their property, so they are not allowed to run on any track owned by Amtrak (this applied to the RVL). You'll see them on the Main/Bergen/Pascack Valley Lines and the Gladstone-Hoboken trains like I mentioned above because they run on tracks owned entirely by NJTransit. Until Amtrak gets their head out of the sand (which takes a while with them) and OK's these things for revenue service, no one-seat rides for any RVL folks yet.
This has all been discussed at length at various stages in the Raritan Valley Line Thread, but if you have any questions, people would be glad to help.
 #1123750  by Backshophoss
 
Believe there is 1 other piece to the puzzle,the AL45DP's still lack the OK to operate in NY City limits,
NYFD has not given that permission yet(NYFD is still "thinking" about it) all Dual-mode engines had to go
thru this process to be allowed into NY Penn/Grand Central Terminal(MNR)
When NYFD gives it's OK,then Amtrak will(should) allow the AL45DP's on the NEC.
 #1123777  by Ken W2KB
 
lirr42 wrote:Welcome to Railroad.net and thanks for your report, Mr. Wagenblast.

But for now a large chunk of the ALP-45DP's (the dual-mode engines that can do both diesel and electric running) are currently being used heavily on the Gladstone-Hoboken trains. During Hurricane Sandy, one of the substations that feeds power to Hoboken Terminal was severely damaged, meaning there is no overhead wire power in Hoboken. The main electric trains that bear the brunt of that outage come off the Gladstone Branch (as the other trains mostly come off of diesel lines).

So to remedy this, they have been primarily using ALP-45DP's on these runs, in electric mode between Gladstone and Newark, then in diesel mode between Newark and Hoboken. One may think, well why can't they just use plain diesels then? Well, two things: 1) the plain diesels have trouble keeping a schedule that is normally kept by much faster accelerating and more agile MU's (especially considering the stations are fairly close together), and 2) the plain diesels are louder and would annoy the residents who already whine and complain about menial things anyway.

Currently, there are a couple kinks in the one-seat ride plan, some of them alluded to in your report, that have to be settled before there are any RVL one-seat rides:
  1. No track space in New York Penn. NYP is where all of these people want to go, however there is 0 room in the inn. The main problem of getting into Penn Station is that the tunnels leading to New York Penn (the North River Tubes) only have 2 tracks, one for each direction. Since the addition of MidTOWN Direct trains and all like that, there is no more space to squeeze any more trains into NYP. So to get RVL trains into NYP, you would have to take another train out and send it someplace else. The only possible option (kinda) is to send some MidTOWN Direct trains (trains from the Morris & Essex Lines or the Montclair/Booton Line that go to NYP) to Hoboken, where they can transfer to the PATH and all to New York. Taking trains off the NEC/NJCL and sending them to Hoboekn would require use of the Waterfront Connection, which is currently at capacity as well. Programs like ARC and Gateway which plan to build two new tunnels to supplement the existing ones (thus providing 4 sub-Hudson tunnels) would allow a whole bunch of new space for RVL trains and the like. NYP is even crammed on the Weekends. The weekend schedules have to be set up in such a way that they can only use 1 tunnel if necessary (be it track work or what have you). Therefore, the schedules have to be contorted in such a way to allow this, and all in all there isn't any space for RVL trains there too (despite there being less trains).
  2. No flyover at HUNTER. HUNTER interlocking is where Raritan Valley Line trains split or join the Northeast Corridor for the quick trip to Newark Penn Station. Currently, there is effectively only one way on/off the corridor and that is on the west side of all the tracks. For a train to go east towards New York Penn Station, the train would have to cross over 4-6 tracks of the very busy corridor to get all the way over to the correct side. During rush hour, a move like this would be far too time-consuming and any delays could cause big problems. Current operations on the RVL don't necessarily necessitate a flyover at HUNTER. The eastbound (inbound) trains just sneak along the "wrong" side of the tracks for the short distance between HUNTER and track 5 of Newark Penn. Something like that's okay for the distance to NWK, but all the way to NYP like that is a no-no. So before any serious amount of trains go there, a "flyover" track (which is a track that goes over/under the NEC tracks to the other side) is necessary. Currently the HUNTER is set up like a highway, with cars going in both directions. Currently we have this exit which only has access to one side of the highway. To get to this exit from the other side of the highway we have to go the wrong way on the other side for a little while (a bad idea). A flyover is basically like another exit being built on your side of the highway, so both sides have quick and easy access to the road.
  3. Amtrak has not cleared the ALP-45DP's for use on the NEC. The Northeast Corridor, including Newark and New York Penn Stations, is owned by Amtrak. And when they're on Amtrak's tracks, we have to play by Amtrak's rules. Currently Amtrak has not OK'ed the use of ALP-45DP's on their property, so they are not allowed to run on any track owned by Amtrak (this applied to the RVL). You'll see them on the Main/Bergen/Pascack Valley Lines and the Gladstone-Hoboken trains like I mentioned above because they run on tracks owned entirely by NJTransit. Until Amtrak gets their head out of the sand (which takes a while with them) and OK's these things for revenue service, no one-seat rides for any RVL folks yet.
This has all been discussed at length at various stages in the Raritan Valley Line Thread, but if you have any questions, people would be glad to help.
For some 14 years now I have taken the RVL from High Bridge to Newark. Not all trains come in on 5. For example, the train I usually ride and rode for that entire 14-year period leaves High Bridge around 6:40 a.m. and arrives Newark around 8 a.m., in the middle of the a.m. rush. It has always crossed over and arrives on either Track 1 or Track A.

Amtrak will very quickly allow the ALP-45DPs to operate on the corridor should the NJ US Senators and a few House Members call and request same. Likewise if a slot were to be opened by terminating a NEC train at Newark.
 #1123781  by braves
 
Here how the Raritan Valley LIne train can get a one direct ride into NY Penn during the morning rush hours.

1)Since there are three Northeast Corridor trains #3124,3126 & 3712 that start in New Brunswick and there start times are very close together like 5 minutes apart, why not eliminate one of these trains and give one slot over to the Raritan Valley Line for direct service to NY Penn Station.

2)Trains #6314 the Midtown Direct out of Summit, why not eliminate this train and have this train make additional stops on trains #6614 & 6616 and again freeing up another slot over to the Raritan Valley Line for direct service to NY Penn Station.

This would give two direct Raritan Valley Line trains with direct service in the am rush to NY Penn Station.

I don't know on how the evening pm rush out of NY Penn Station would be but two Raritan Valley Line trains would start there.

Off peak weekday service would also be extended directly to NY Penn Station
 #1123807  by rvlch
 
I have also observed that the NEC crossover seems to be handled smoothly by many RVL trains every rush hour. Even more so recently with the construction making the short east end of the track 5 platform being all that is available as this precludes any doubling up of arriving RVL sets on that track. Yet with a few tweaks it seems to work smoothly. Of course those who actually make this happen may have contrary opinions....but it seems to me that the Hunter flyover argument on the RVL one seat ride subject is a bit of a red herring, although I don't doubt for minute it would make things much easier.

In the morning, quite a few RVL trains already arrive on 1, A or 2. After unloading, these all move east, generally into MMC to nap. In the afternoon rush, all the east bound trains land somewhere on the east side of the station as there is a continous stream of westbound trains entering and loading on 5. I would guess that these afternoon eastbound crossover moves in the face of outbound evening rush are probably the most problematic.

Those westbound afternoon rush trains are generally all staging out of Hudson whether they are reversing there or have come up from MMC, so they all have to make a crossover move to get to track 5. This is a move that an RVL train coming out of NYP would not have to make. And every RVL train that does not go to MMC to layover mid day is a pair of slots on the Waterfront connection as well, if I understand the facilities.

So while there are certainly hurdles to working out one seat RVP - NYP service, it does not seem to me that the lack of a flyover at Hunter is a show stopper.
 #1123950  by ryanov
 
I have witnessed RVL trains coming in on every track in the station except the PATH track. 3 and 4 are the two strangest, but it does happen (4 was on a weekend when 5 was OOS and at least one morning inbound comes in on 3 habitually).
 #1125106  by Sirsonic
 
3124, 3126, 3712, and 6314 all have heavy ridership of their own which can not easily be handled by other trains. 6314, for example, is programmed to operate with 10ML and even though it makes few stops, it handles well over 1000 passengers. It would be difficult to accommodate those passengers on other trains.
 #1205380  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Passaic River Rat wrote:According to this article, Headquarters is committing to direct service on weekends.
I expected RVL to have direct dual-mode service first, before the Boonton Line.

It could have been done in the late 1990s: the tubes were already wired with third rail all the way to the portal, and some P32s could have been ordered then.
 #1205429  by ACeInTheHole
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote:
Passaic River Rat wrote:According to this article, Headquarters is committing to direct service on weekends.
I expected RVL to have direct dual-mode service first, before the Boonton Line.

It could have been done in the late 1990s: the tubes were already wired with third rail all the way to the portal, and some P32s could have been ordered then.
The ALP45s are sweeter though, they can go in whatever mode the assignment requires instead of temporarily as in the case of the P32s.
 #1205691  by necrails
 
While it is nice that NJT will be offering one seat rides, the times offered provide no value to commuters on the RVL. Unless there is a way to provide at least 2 trains in the morning and 2 in the evening this is nothing but a stunt to keep folks quiet. I wonder what would happen if one train on the NJCL was terminated at Newark Penn and one on the M & E was sent on to Hoboken. Would the slots into New York then be open or would the outcry be so great that the folks who live along the RVL would just have to continue to have degraded service levels?
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