• American Dream Opening and Expanded Meadowlands Rail Service

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: Tadman, nick11a, Kaback9, ACeInTheHole

  by nightmare403
 
from what ive seen so far there is a program for the 85 to American dream because the nabi's have the side speakers but the display doesnt show
  by pumpers
 
Ken W2KB wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:02 pm
pumpers wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:14 pm Got it. I surmised that this was different from the Secaucus loop, but was trying to understand how it would increase service. Now I know - by avoiding the time for the crew to change ends, mainly.
So now I ask - how long does that take? Are there a new set of tests, e.g. brake tests, or some other long procedure when they switch ends?
My recollection / estimate is that the time to conduct the tests when the NJT crew changes ends at High Bridge station is about 5 minutes.
Hmm. Five minutes. Doesn't sound to me like that's worth a billion or so, crossing Route 3... Or maybe they could just build an elevated loop in the parking lot, perhaps circling around the football stadium, connecting back to the existing Meadowlands spur.
  by NIMBYkiller
 
The good thing about building the through route is that an expanded main line schedule could operate via Meadowlands full time.
  by Hawaiitiki
 
EuroStar wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:06 pm The loop referred to in the article is a long forgotten proposal to continue the Meadowlands line from its terminus with a bridge over Route 3 and then merge back into the Bergen Line via a grade separated junction just before the bridge over the Hackensack River. The idea of such a loop is to avoid switching ends by the crew at the Meadowlands in order to speed up service to subway level frequencies. I am not sure if this was coupled with some other loop or another way to turn the trains quickly on the other side of Secaucus. In any case, the idea of such a loop predates me, and I do not know the details of the proposal.
There's an official map on the interwebs somewhere about this old proposal. The map also suggests that a connection be built to the West Shore Line across the Meadows to link it to the Hoboken division. Map must have been made right before the 2008 stock market crash and the Christie years... ;)
  by Backshophoss
 
NJt can barely cover service NOW,with equipment and crew shortages,There seems to be enough bus service to this overblown mall! :P
Wait for the rail side to get squared away and covering all regular service before committing equipment and crews to this!!!
  by CentralValleyRail
 
Ken W2KB wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:02 pm
pumpers wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:14 pm Got it. I surmised that this was different from the Secaucus loop, but was trying to understand how it would increase service. Now I know - by avoiding the time for the crew to change ends, mainly.
So now I ask - how long does that take? Are there a new set of tests, e.g. brake tests, or some other long procedure when they switch ends?
My recollection / estimate is that the time to conduct the tests when the NJT crew changes ends at High Bridge station is about 5 minutes.
This is true, but your dealing with a union so that 5 minutes takes thirty to an hour.
  by Tom V
 
NJ Transit investment / expansion would be to improve the Meadowlands link by extending it further South across Route 3 connecting back on the Main/Bergen line. This would allow for thru running of Pascack Valley line trains and establishing the Meadowlands Sports Complex station a full time station to serve American Dream as well as Sports events.

Service to the Sports complex station would be greatly improved as the trains do not need to reverse direction back over the way trains come into the station. Trains can be laid up in Hoboken and dispatched to loop through the Sports complex and back to Secaucus jct. and or Hoboken. Trains can also be dispatched after events to pick up passengers at the complex who are heading to points North by offering the thru service of Pascack Valley line trains and or looping the Bergen/Main/Port Jervis trains through the Sports complex and then back onto the Main/Bergen line for points North.

This would realize the true potential of the link which really does not work today as it should. There are well documented problems from concerts, the Super bowl etc.. where it was more hassle than it was worth for patrons who were piled up either at the Sports complex or Secaucus jct.

Perhaps a public / private financing for,UAL could be used to complete the loop.
  by EuroStar
 
So NJT is looking for ways to move people to and from the mall and held an Innovation Challenge Event. Supposedly they are looking for innovative ideas how to build, operate and finance something to move people between the mall and Secaucus Junction. What exactly do they expect the private industry to tell them? What kool-aid is NJT drinking? I bet you all of the industry and university experts were there hoping to eventually get on the gravy train of some state funded project. There is no reasonable way for a private enterprise to finance anything, even a bus between the mall and the station.

Here is some math. The Mall of America generates 40 million visitors per year. Let's assume that American Dream gets the same. Assume that one third, that is 14 million of them take the "thingy" that NJT is trying to conceive. There is no reasonable way to charge more than $4 each way. Note that currently the bus run by NJT charges only $2.55 each way. Practically none of these 14 million visitors live at Secaucus Junction, so they all will need to pay for an extra train ticker or some other means to get to Secaucus Junction (currently $4.50 from NYP). For comparison the current bus from the Porth Authority to the mall charges $9.00 each way.

At this point the annual revenue of the "thingy" is 14 million times $4 times 2 (going each way)=$112 million. Quite optimistically we will assume that operating costs eat only half of that revenue, so we are left with $56 million to cover the capital costs. At 5% interest a 30 year self amortizing bond with annual payments of $56 million has an initial amount of about $800 million. Let's be generous and make this $1 billion. Here we have ignored the fact that this is quite a risky venture, that equity capital will require much higher rate of return and that this "thingy" will not be operational for at least 5 years while construction proceeds. The conclusion though is that the "thingy" cannot cost more than $1 billion.

At this point is is pretty obvious that nothing with a dedicated right of way can be built between the mall and the station for $1 billion. Any dedicated right of way will require at least one bridge over route 3, at least one bridge over the Hackensack, at least one bridge over conventional rail line and needs to traverse an environmentally sensitive marshes with substantial pre-existing buildout. It is not happening for $1 billion. The only "thingies" that have a shot at happening for less than $1 billion use pre-existing rights of way, and by that I really mean roads, not rail. So more buses it is going to be. Get ready for the eventual traffic jams if this mall really matches the visitors of the Mall of America.
  by lensovet
 
well at least now we know why there's no daily rail service — the only thing that's open right now is the Nickelodeon park and the skate rink. Of course it doesn't make any sense to run trains for that. That and the parking is free.

Current plans say the full mall won't open until March 2020. I can imagine NJT having enough PTC-compliant equipment and engineers to potentially start running all-day weekend service as a trial run a month or so after the full mall is open.
  by EuroStar
 
It does not matter how much of the mall is open. Even once the whole thing is open there will be no regular rail service between Secaucus and the mall. The Meadowlands extension was designed after Secaucus was built. The lower level at Secaucus has no ability to take frequent shuttles back and forth while accommodating the current level of service on the other tracks. Have you ever been at the lower level when they run concert or game shuttles? All regularly scheduled service comes on a single track and the delays and confusion are horrendous. There is a good reason why nobody is proposing finishing the long forgotten Meadowlands loop. The better known reason is that it is expensive, but the second and also very important reason is that even with the loop, they still cannot run frequent enough service due to limitations at Secaucus.
  by Riverduckexpress
 
Obviously this is purely hypothetical, but the Meadowlands Loop would allow Pascack Valley Line trains to serve the Meadowlands in both directions right? Then you would need fewer shuttle service to provide the same amount of service between Meadowlands and Secaucus, and could probably extend those reduced number of shuttle trains to Hoboken?
  by Hawaiitiki
 
EuroStar wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:01 am The lower level at Secaucus has no ability to take frequent shuttles back and forth while accommodating the current level of service on the other tracks. Have you ever been at the lower level when they run concert or game shuttles? All regularly scheduled service comes on a single track and the delays and confusion are horrendous. There is a good reason why nobody is proposing finishing the long forgotten Meadowlands loop. The better known reason is that it is expensive, but the second and also very important reason is that even with the loop, they still cannot run frequent enough service due to limitations at Secaucus.
Well, also NJT's original messaging, maps, and indications of the Meadowlands Line before it opened was that it would be its own "line" originating all trains from Hoboken, which IS designed to turn and service trains. That sort of happened at first. Does anyone know if ANY Meadowlands Line trains originate at Hoboken anymore?, maybe one or two an event?