Subway Extension to Secaucus (Flushing #7 or L Canarsie)

[Arlington]

#7 Extension is Superior to ARC in a number of ways:
1) Free Station Capacity: No cost for a giant subterranean terminal (as with ARC), because there will be 10 mid-town platforms already built (at 34th, 42nd, 5th Ave, and GCT), and will use those platforms on the "non-rush" side.

Sigh
GCT, 5th and TSQ are island stations. One platform, and most of the time already filled to the brim.
anf guess what, if this is added, they become "Double Rush" with inbound passngers on both sides.

Yes, I was at least partially wrong about counting the non-rush side of the island as a whole non-rush platform.

[Arlington]

Incidentally, the docs for the current #7 extension said the tunnel and track would extend south of the new Javits station all the way to W24th Street. Seehttp://www.mta.info/capconstr/7ext/scoping.pdf at page 18. There is an access structure at W26th, but the tunnel and track in the plans go 2 blocks further south (to below the park).

A diagonal station in the park from 11Ave@W24 to Waterfront@W22 would make a great launch box for a TBM.

[ryanov]

Who would that serve? People transferring from the Main/Bergen/Pascack lines?

Well, if i worked on the east side and commuted from brunswick, i'd get off at secaucus and transfer to the 7 just to avoid crowded penn station and the subway @ 34th st which is, of course crowded @ rush hour.
this would also spur development in secaucus. and maybe nj could get the mta to agree to a station in the union city area or a connection to the hb rail line! I see win, win, win; something for all the big egos involved!
Where's the Robert Moses of Rail when you need him?!!!!

Not if the train was already full before it got to Secaucus, you wouldn't. As far as I knew, this tunnel problem was also to deal with the issue of not enough trains to NY to handle the loads. I guess what they're saying the issue is is that there are too many people on between Secaucus and NY and so there'd be a big exchange of passengers at Secaucus?

After the next MetroCard increase, the price for commuting from, say, Rutherford would be about the same using an NJT monthly pass to Secaucus + MetroCard or for NJT monthly pass to NY. NJTransit would be a far better deal -- flexibility of use, can use it on the bus (wouldn't be enough zones without a NY pass)... though I guess some commuters may already have unlimited-ride cards.

[keithsy]

And where would this terminate and from whom will this blessing flow? Will it end up in a residential neighborhood? The people of Secaucus do not want NY's problems. Also, cross state lines, you have to meet FRA standards, that means rule book exams and learning and memorizing physical characteristics of the road BY ROTE! The average NYCT employee is not capable of such. Right now, there are some who are trying to get in to the DeKalb by-pass from the Brighton at Atlantic Ave.

[amtrakowitz]

Steve Lanset, one of the SubwayToSecaucus.com guys, says in the New York Times that he feels "validated and vindicated".

[Arlington]

I think there are a number of misconceptions here.

And where would this terminate and from whom will this blessing flow? Will it end up in a residential neighborhood? The people of Secaucus do not want NY's problems.

It will not end up in a residential neighborhood. Secaucus Junction is in the middle of a vast empty space. It is the cross-shaped building at the center of this aerial view: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qst5y4 ... 5666270582. It is where it is because the NEC and the NJT's Erie-Lackawana-Morris-Essex lines happened to conveniently cross in the middle of nowhere.

Also, cross state lines, you have to meet FRA standards, that means rule book exams and learning and memorizing physical characteristics of the road BY ROTE! .

I think you're wrong about the FRA. I'll cite WMATA (DC Area Metro) which crosses two state lines (MD & VA) and is not encumbered by FRA standards (for example, its rolling stock is very light). You might cite PATH which admittedly is FRA, I think that's a relic of being founded in 1902, and they've stuck with it. So even if the default of "interstate railroads" is to be FRA, there probably is a new category for transit operators, and/or it must be fairly possible to get a waiver

[Ken W2KB]

The transfer at Secaucus also affords a choice between Penn Station area and Grand Central Terminal (and intermediate stop) for commuters, far better than today.

[Taborite]

If it's built it's an improvement, but no panacea. Something will need to be done on the Jersey side to improve capacity or it won't work, but it solves the rest of the problem.

[NE2]

You might cite PATH which admittedly is FRA, I think that's a relic of being founded in 1902, and they've stuck with it. So even if the default of "interstate railroads" is to be FRA, there probably is a new category for transit operators, and/or it must be fairly possible to get a waiver

I think PATH is covered by FRA standards because it used to share tracks with the PRR between (roughly) Journal Square and Manhattan Transfer.

[Kamen Rider]

The real porblem lies in funding. NJ doesn't pay any of the taxes to support the MTA people who live in New york pay. I pay both the MTA sales tax when ever I buy something and my city income taxes, part of which get funneled into the Transit Authority. These funding sources can't be removed from where they are collected for the use of someone else. That's why services outside thier normer jurisdiction are limited. NJT can't provide local service on it's buses in the city, and only does so on the Old Eire Main with Metro-North becuase it's in the best intrist of the people on both sides of the border. Building a subway line to the middle of nowhere for the sake of Secacuse junction is just plain nuts, it only helps New Jersey side of the river commuters and is being done so with my city tax dollars, which are supposed to be for me and my 8,391,880 neighbors, not some lazy dope from Passaic who can't wait 10 mintues and get on PATH at Hoboken if he can't get on the NEC.

Now, the last time i checked, we're dicussing MTA New York City Transit, not MTA New York City and Secaucus Transit.

[oknazevad]

PATH doensn't do midtown manhattan. The benefit here is NJ-to-Midtown, not just NJ-to-places south of 34th street (such as PATH and ARC offer/offered)

I would consider the 33rd St PATH station as much Midtown as the one-block-away Penn Station. In fact, herald square is about as centered in Midtown as one gets, nearly as much as Times Square. The only thing really lacking there is a crosstown subway line. So to say the PATH doesn't do Midtown is incorrect.

[Jeff Smith]

Kamen, many NJ residents pay NYS taxes since they work in NY. They get a credit for the tax paid to NYS on their NJ income tax (it's called reciprocity). Bringing people from NJ to NY on subsidized transit on some level makes economic sense. They work there, eat there, shop there, etc.

[Arlington]

PATH doensn't do midtown manhattan. The benefit here is NJ-to-Midtown, not just NJ-to-places south of 34th street (such as PATH and ARC offer/offered)

I would consider the 33rd St PATH station as much Midtown as the one-block-away Penn Station. In fact, herald square is about as centered in Midtown as one gets, nearly as much as Times Square..[snip]... So to say the PATH doesn't do Midtown is incorrect.

When town is divided just Down/Mid/Up, you're right, because Mid goes from 14th to 59th, just like NYC Dept of Planning's Zone 5. (see http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/neighbor/neighbor.pdf). But when they put names on their zones, the planners don't back you up: they put Penn at a far south corner of "Midtown South"

Meanwhile, the official planners' "Midtown" is farther north, focused on an axis from Times Sq-Bryant Park-GCT. Wikipedia too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ma ... ghborhoods). Most say Penn best serves the Garment District and the Tenderloin. This view has Midtown between 40-59th St and 3rd-9th Ave,

It is the employers and developers of that Midtown (including Wall St firms that moved north) that are the new/growing magnets that pull Jersey people into the city, and it is in the interest of all of NYC to be able to pull talent to this area as easily as possible.

[Arlington]

Kamen, many NJ residents pay NYS taxes since they work in NY. They get a credit for the tax paid to NYS on their NJ income tax (it's called reciprocity). Bringing people from NJ to NY on subsidized transit on some level makes economic sense. They work there, eat there, shop there, etc.

..they support high property values and their employers pay rent and taxes, and their landlords pay property taxes...all on the premise that Midtown is the best place for businesses to draw talent in from the vast tri-state area.

Better transport -> Bigger talent pool -> better business -> higher rents -> higher property values -> higher revenues (income & property)

NYC's place of primacy is based on its access to talent and trade, and has been for the last 300 years. When NY built a canal from Albany to Buffalo, it benefited NYC, even though it did not stay just within the 5 boros NJ-MIdtown connections are even good for the outer boros to ensure that all this stays in Midtown. Gotta keep working at it, or NJ or CT or Texas or Florida will lure folks away.

[djlong]

Not only do those who live in NJ and wik in NYC pay taxes to NY and NYC, here's another thing to consider...

THEY DO NOT VOTE IN NY.

In essence, New York gets "free money" from people to whom they do NOT have to answer as there is NO representative from NJ on any NY city council or in Albany.

So the next time you think that 'benefitting' NJ commuters are for some "lazy dope", just remember - YOU are benefitting from HIS tax dollars without so much WHISPER on how to spend it. HE is subsidizing YOU and helping pay for YOUR fire, YOUR police, YOUR schools - but he leaves the city at quitting time.

That's the kind of parochial thinking that prevents things from getting done - an inability to see past one's own borders for the greater good. (Says the guy who lives in NH and works in MA so I see this every day)