Fantasy Map Revisited

[JayMan]

Here's a revisit of my map, this time to include an outer borough loop, along with various other tweaks and improvements. These new lines are not just highly important, but necessary to maintain adequate mobility in the City. Note that the right edge of the map is cut off here. Just click here to view the full image.

[Jeff Smith]

Very nice. I like the 3rd Av extension and Co-Op loop. Not sure about the Y line; while it fills many holes (North Queens and Cross-Bronx are nice), I'm not sure about a lot of the rest of it.

[Paul1705]

A couple of Bronx comments:

1. The W line could be extended to a new underground station at Burke Avenue and White Plains Road - to be shared with an extension of the D from 205th Street. (There was a suggestion to extend the D sometime in the 1970s).

2. A station at Morris Heights would have to be very deep for the line to pass under the Harlem River. (Although it would have been convenient when I used to live in that neighborhood!) Another option would be to have the Y train run under Fordham Road to connect with the existing line at 207th and Broadway.

[Radioguy]

Nice to see the Bay Ridge line inclusion. It would also be nice to see the T extend across Rockaway Inlet and meet the A.

[Jeff Smith]

A couple of Bronx comments:

1. The W line could be extended to a new underground station at Burke Avenue and White Plains Road - to be shared with an extension of the D from 205th Street. (There was a suggestion to extend the D sometime in the 1970s).

I like the idea of extending the W to the Concourse line. That would give that line an east-side Manhattan option. Not sure about Burke and White Plains Rd - would Gun Hill make more sense (talk about a blast from the past!).

[Paul1705]

Well, he does have the U train that connects the Concourse line to the Second Avenue subway.

I guess Gun Hill and White Plains Road could be a terminal instead of Burke Avenue (D and W trains). It would be a slightly longer distance, but not by much - maybe a half-mile or so.

The Y train (Bay Ridge Branch and so forth) might be good as light rail. The majority of it would still be grade separated, but there places in East Flatbush were grade crossings could be maintained, and there are other places (the East Bronx?) where some street running might be used. Or it could be split into two routes, one rapid transit and one light rail.

[Jeff Smith]

You're right, I missed the U-train connection. I guess you could have both, and you'd have some flexibility within the Bronx for getting lower Concourse line passengers to the East-Side, and provide an alternate routing in the Bronx down Third.

How about extensions of the northern terminus' of the Bronx lines? I know no one is anxious to build EL's, but if you could bring them closer to commuter rail lines or northern suburbs, you could facilitate reverse commutes. Everyone seems anxious to get something to Co-Op City, but no one wants to extend the 6.

[Amtrak7]

I like the Y line the Q bronx extension, and the 125 St. crosstown.

Eliminate the U.
The T in Bk is okay...

My plan for the Bronx-
Extend the A across the University Heights Bridge and connect it with the D at Fordham Rd. Terminate at Bedford Park.
Extend the D as a crosstown to terminate at Pelham Bay Park (6)

Extend the 7 to Great Neck
Extend the E to JFK Airport's surroundings, make AirTrain connection.

[Paul1705]

Yes, the U train seems to require a new connection between the Fulton Street IND and the Fourth Avenue BMT. I suspect that would be a rather complex project; I'm not sure the benefits would justify the cost.

[Radioguy]

The Y train (Bay Ridge Branch and so forth) might be good as light rail. The majority of it would still be grade separated, but there places in East Flatbush were grade crossings could be maintained, and there are other places (the East Bronx?) where some street running might be used. Or it could be split into two routes, one rapid transit and one light rail.

I don't know why people keep floating that idea for the Bay Ridge line. It's much better suited for use as a true crosstown subway line within the NYCTS. Light rail would isolate it from the subway system, and require new infrastructure and maintenance unique to the new equipment that would need to be purchased and installed. The new quiet running R160s nullify the old NIMBY arguments about noise, and the common infrastructure and equipment needed would cost far less to install and maintain. Of those two options, there seems no comparison. In fact, if light rail were the only commuter rail option, I'd sooner consider conversion to an expressway, or leaving the line for freight. (eventually into disrepair)

[hrfcarl]

Considering Kings Plaza is on Flatbush Ave, let the T go to Ozone Park (eliminate two A branch trains) and instead extend the 2 under Flatbush Ave and extend the 4 under Utica Ave to meet at Kings Plaza (Utica & Flatbush meet only a few block away).

I am tossed up about the Y. While useful, lots have been spent improving (height clearances) the Bay Ridge for freight which would all be wasted if turned into subway. Personally, I would like to see the Bay Ridge Branch reused by LIRR operating between LIC, Queens to NY Container Terminal, SI via rehabed SI N.Shore RR and tunnel between 65th St Yard Brooklyn and St.George SI. The tunnel should be 2 level, similar to 63rd street tunnel built for ESA, so one level can be given to Subway to connect to rest of the city's subway system (become the U on this map). Break fares down to SI and Brooklyn/Queens, so if traveling within the same zone (ex: NYCT to St.George) on this LIRR line, charge the same as subway, but more typical LIRR rates if crossing zones. In SI: rehab all the SI N.Shore RR stations. In Brooklyn: rehab ENY lower station for interconnection to Atlantic Branch & subways and add the New Utrecht Ave & Brooklyn College/Flatbush Ave for more interconnections between subways. Not sure where to best put stations in Queens. The idea of going to Queens from SI is the hope that a new tunnel will be built to NYP under E.River from LIC or build a new tunnel to connect Lower Montauk to ESA at Sunnyside, in either case the idea is to allow ride from NYP/GCT to NYCT. If to NYP, NJT might be interest in using this route.

As for the rest of the Y between Flushing thru The Bronx to 190St/Ft Wash Ave , maybe the 7 line could be extended for that purpose.

Another extension that might be interesting would be for the N train to continue past Ditmars Blvd over the Con Ed property then turn east and run underground to LaGuardia Airport.

[hi55us]

still no service for LGA in your fantasy map? Seems more important than a 125th shuttle, that is currently provided by MTA bus.

[Paul1705]

Rail service to LaGuardia was on the MTA's list for a while earlier in this decade. For the moment, it has been dropped and other projects have priority.

Extension of the N train would appear to be the easiest way to go, and indeed it was considered. However, there were some rumblings of discontent in Astoria. The elevated line would have to be extended past three blocks of residential buildings before reaching the Con Edison property.

In any case, the project never reached the point where a final route was chosen.

[Otto Vondrak]

For the "Y" I say, "Why?"

For the "Q" to Co-op City, why not extend the 6 instead?

[jonnhrr]

Rail service to LaGuardia was on the MTA's list for a while earlier in this decade. For the moment, it has been dropped and other projects have priority.

Extension of the N train would appear to be the easiest way to go, and indeed it was considered. However, there were some rumblings of discontent in Astoria. The elevated line would have to be extended past three blocks of residential buildings before reaching the Con Edison property.

In any case, the project never reached the point where a final route was chosen.

Has there ever been consideration of rerouting the end of the N to run along GC Parkway perhaps in the median (if there is room) to reach LGA?

Jon