NYCT Subway- Why doesn't it leave NYC?

[matt1168]

...that the NYC subway system is the largest in the nation, yet the only one not to leave its respective city?

Why is this? It seems like all other rapid transit systems in the US leave their cities, even older ones like that in Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston. So why doesn't it in NY?

Is it because the early subway planners of the IRT, BMT, and IND didn't want to leave the city because technically Brooklyn and Queens weren't part of NYC at that time? Surely you would think that by the 50's and 60's, in that case, the MTA would've extended lines into Westchester and Long Island.

Is it becaues H&M went to NJ, and since it was never incorporated into the MTA system, we think of it that way? Is it because NYC is too big, or the LIRR?

Please, tell me what you can!

[KFRG]

The NY area has to be the largest and most complex Metro areas in the world. Most cities don't have such a developed Commuter Rail network as New York's, so Rapid Transit make up for that. On most lines (Specifically Queens) trains don't even reach out to the actual "city" limits. The system was designed a long time ago when Eastern Queens was much more rural being further from the city, while systems such as the Washington Metro were built when the that area was much more developed. Even the LIRR, and MNCR up north make up for lack of service, with frequent stops in that area.

-Tom

[CSX Conductor]

I think is is big enough the way it is. LOL

:D

[walt]

I don't know much about the NY subway system, however, the Philadelphia system only leaves Phila. at the western end of the Market Frankford Subway- Elevated ( leaving Phila. west of the 63rd Street Station to run to 69th Street Terminal in Upper Darby, Pa.). This is not more than a mile or so. This happened because Merritt Taylor, president of the suburban Philadelphia & West Chester Traction Co. ( predecessor of the Red Arrow Lines) convinced the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company to "extend" the "El" from 63rd Street to 69th Street by agreeing to acquire the land for the Terminal and the right of way between 63rd & 69th. Subway Surface ( trolley) Routes 11 and 13 also cross the city line, but, again, their "suburban" run is not more than a mile or two.

Baltimore and DC's metrorail systems both have significant trackage outside of the respective cities, but, as noted above, both were designed and built much more recently than either the NY or Philly systems--- at a time when suburban development was much more extensive than in the early 20th century when NY and Philly's systems were built.

[matt1168]

I don't know much about the NY subway system, however, the Philadelphia system only leaves Phila. at the western end of the Market Frankford Subway- Elevated ( leaving Phila. west of the 63rd Street Station to run to 69th Street Terminal in Upper Darby, Pa.). This is not more than a mile or so. This happened because Merritt Taylor, president of the suburban Philadelphia & West Chester Traction Co. ( predecessor of the Red Arrow Lines) convinced the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company to "extend" the "El" from 63rd Street to 69th Street by agreeing to acquire the land for the Terminal and the right of way between 63rd & 69th. Subway Surface ( trolley) Routes 11 and 13 also cross the city line, but, again, their "suburban" run is not more than a mile or two.

Yes, I am aware of this; this is what I meant by it leaves the city. Also, if you want to go out on a stretch, you could say that Rts. 100, 101, and 102 are "rapid transit" which never leaves the city; actually, they never enter it.

Older systems don't tend to leave their cities, but the one that always has surprised me was Chicago; they have alot of trackage outside of the city; hell 2 entire lines barely enter it.

[CS]

Funny, in Boston EVERY rapid transit line (unless you think that a bus can actually be the equivalent of rail line) leaves Boston. The Red goes to Cambridge (northbound) and all the way down through the city of Quincy to Braintree on the South Shore of MA. The Orange goes 2 towns north to Malden where the last station isn't that far from the next town north. The Blue line goes one town north to Revere and the Green line goes out to Newton and through Brookline. Now back in the olden days the Orange Line still terminated outside of Boston at Everett (east of Malden) and the Braintree \ Quincy line wasn't built until 1969. The green line branch that goes to Newton wasn't built until 1959. Everything else was basically the same back to the twenties so I know exactly why NYC's subway doesn't - of course it could be because to very small size of Boston and the very large size of New York.

[efin98]

Boston's rapid transit els never left the City of Boston, the only lines that left the system were the trolley lines. It wasn't until 11 years after the els first opened that a line would extend beyond city limits.
Also keep in mind that Boston is a fraction of the size of New York City so any rail line up here is tiny compared to the lines down there

[7 Train]

There was (and in some degree still is) a plan to extend the 7 to NJ. This would be in time for the 2012 Olympics.

[Otto Vondrak]

Technically, NYCTA spans five counties of New York State... this is a large area if you consider the that the system serves five cities: New York, Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Richmond/Staten Island (though SIRT was not part of the original Subway system). Maybe it would have made sense for the Subway to reach the southern Westchester cities of Yonkers, Mount Vernon, and New Rochelle... but as said above, the commuter railroads more than made up for that (three divisions of the NYC (Hudson, Putnam, Harlem), two of the New Haven (mainline and Harlem River Branch), plus the NYW&B's two mainline branches). On Long Island, the myriad branches of the LIRR made up for whatever service rapid transit didn't provide.

-otto-

[walt]

Also, if you want to go out on a stretch, you could say that Rts. 100, 101, and 102 are "rapid transit" which never leaves the city; actually, they never enter it.

Very true--- the reason for this is that their orgin, in terms of the companies which built them, was different from the MFSE. Rte 100 was the Philadelphia & Western Railroad, and Rtes 101 and 102 are the Media and Sharon Hill Lines of the former P&WCT/ Red Arrow Lines. Neither of these companies had a franchise to build or operate within the City of Philadelphia, that was reserved to the PRT. An interesting note--- both P&W and P&WCT wanted, very much, to reach Center City over the tracks of the "El", and actually had their early traction cars built to be compatable with the "El". PRT never agreed to this for either company, so this service never materialized.
This may have been the problem for the several companies which comprised the NYC subway system when it was built. If they couldn't obtain a franchise from the suburban jurisdictions, they couldn't build there. ( Others may know whether this was actually a factor)

[ChiTownHustler]

Older systems don't tend to leave their cities, but the one that always has surprised me was Chicago; they have alot of trackage outside of the city; hell 2 entire lines barely enter it.

Sort of. The Purple Line enters the city on weekdays. The Yellow Line though is a very different creature. Skokie was able to retain service by getting a government grant to test if rapid transit could work in a suburban setting.

Besides: Evanston, Skokie, and Wilmette are not that far from the center of Chicago. The South Side extends much further down. And most lines don't go very far outside city limits.

What I can't figure out in New York is how some areas just seem destined to never have service -- Far Chelsea, Lower East Side, Governor's Island+Red Hook. (I'm assuming something eventually happens with GI.) Why serve New Rochelle when you could bring service to one of those areas instead?

[efin98]

Technically, NYCTA spans five counties of New York State... this is a large area if you consider the that the system serves five cities: New York, Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Richmond/Staten Island (though SIRT was not part of the original Subway system). Maybe it would have made sense for the Subway to reach the southern Westchester cities of Yonkers, Mount Vernon, and New Rochelle... but as said above, the commuter railroads more than made up for that (three divisions of the NYC (Hudson, Putnam, Harlem), two of the New Haven (mainline and Harlem River Branch), plus the NYW&B's two mainline branches). On Long Island, the myriad branches of the LIRR made up for whatever service rapid transit didn't provide.

-otto-

If you want to extend this further since New York is made up of a few former cities annexed into one you can easily say it does in fact leave the city, of the past that is :D In fact, I think a few of the outer els exist from the pre-annexation era. The J, M, A(former Fulton Street BMT), and L being the ones off the top of my head.

[efin98]

What I can't figure out in New York is how some areas just seem destined to never have service -- Far Chelsea, Lower East Side, Governor's Island+Red Hook. (I'm assuming something eventually happens with GI.) Why serve New Rochelle when you could bring service to one of those areas instead?

What about some of the other sections of Queens and the Bronx as well.

And IIRC, the Lower East Side will eventually get some service thanks to the Second Avenue Subway(if and when that ever happens).