Forgotten NYC Elevated Subway Lines

[NJTRailfan]

I surfed the forgotten New York Website and learned about the Elevated subway Lines known as the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave ELs.

Why were they torn down and why is the MTA only replacing the 2nd Ave rather then the other three elevated lines? Does the MTA feel along with the City of NY thinks theres enough subway lines to serve the public and feel the demand isn't there? I would think if they rebuild not just the 2nd Ave but the 3rd El as well they can ease congestion on the other lines.

Where did these lines orignate and terminate?

[bellstbarn]

There are more knowledgeable people than I, and I suspect the answers to your questions are easy to find on the web and in books. However, since I recall riding the 23rd Street zig-zag of the Second Avenue El at age 5, let me try answers, subject to correction. Try the 6th and 9th first.
See "John F. Hylan" at wikipedia.org
According to some, this mayor was so riled by his early job experience with the Brooklyn Rapid Transit, that as mayor he began plans for the IND (Independent City-Owned System, ICOS) in the 1920's, deliberately to put the BMT and IRT out of business. He paralleled the 9th Avenue el with the 8th Avenue subway, the 6th subway under the 6th el, Fulton St Brooklyn subway under Fulton St El and the Concourse Independent parallel to Jerome Avenue Interborough. His "success" came four years after he died. In 1940, the three systems were "unified," but the 6th, 9th, and Fulton St els were left out of the system. They stopped almost all operation, except for the Polo Ground shuttle and the Fulton el east of Rockaway Avenue.
The major stupidity was the 1942 elimination of the Second Avenue el and the 1950-1955? starvation of the Third Avenue el (cut hours, cut service, claim nobody rides it). Whereas on the West Side, four tracks under Central Park West replaced three tracks above Columbus Avenue, on the East Side six el tracks were lost 1940-1955?, leaving only four tracks on the East Side. It was a 60% loss of trackage.
One link among many:
http://rapidtransit.com/net/thirdrail/0107/cohen3.html

As for terminals, one might argue, depending on the date. As a generalization, the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 9th could reach South Ferry. To the north, probably some 9th Avenue trains reached Woodlawn, though in dad's era I believe the northern terminus was Burnside Avenue. The 6th Avenue route veered west on 53rd Street, just as the D nowadays. As I recall the late 1940's, the Third Avenue had a variety of services (local, express, local-express, and through express), some to Freeman Street, some to Gun Hill Road. The Second Avenue el had a branch across the top of the Queensborough Bridge to Willets Point (and Astoria?) until 1942. Some history book or site will tell you whether and when Second Avenue provided service north of 129th Street. When Dad moved to New York in 1922, he first lodged in Yorkville between Second and Third Avenues. The Third Avenue rumbled all night, but the Second Avenue quit about midnight. He moved the next week to a quieter street.

[UpperHarlemLine4ever]

Were the 2nd, 6th and 9th Avenue Els left out of the take over or were they taken over and then closed? Were they closed because they were not taken over or was it the intention of the city to stop their operation immediately upon take over. I was led to believe that the els were closed because the subways were replacing them except for the 2nd Avenue, which to this day has not been replaced.

[bellstbarn]

UpperHarlemLine, that is a good question. I suspect that on June 1, 1940, the city bought the rolling stock of the Interborough subway lines and (perhaps) only some of the rolling stock of the Interborough els. I don't know who owned the elevated structures over 6th and 9th Avenues. It would be interesting to see the details of the deal. Maybe the NY Times will tell me. And probably many readers of this message board are more learned on this topic than my scant knowledge.
Joe McMahon

[bellstbarn]

Wrong date. The takeover of the BMT was June 1, 1940. The takeover of the IRT was midnight, June 11, 1940, or a minute later if you use the June 12 date . The Sixth Avenue el had already been taken over at the end of 1938. The final trains of the Ninth Avenue were as midnight of June 11 approached. The same night, Second Avenue north of 60th Street quit service. The NY Times on Proquest (perhaps available through your public library) has several articles in May and June, 1940, with details of the price and how the city financed the cost.

[NJTRailfan]

so any plans in rebuilding the 3rd, 6th and 9th St Subways or does NYC/MTA feels that there is enough subways running from South Ferry to the to the Bronx?

[orangeline]

Building completely new underground lines will cost giga $$$$$$$. Building new elevated lines will bring out the NIMBYs worried that property values and their quality of life will go down the toilet. Ain't gonna happen. In any case, there are 6th, 7th and 8th Ave subways already in place. I guess NYC/MTA feel this is enough for the west side. On the east side, there's the Lex subway. In my opinion, another line is sorely needed. This will be the 2nd Ave line, IF it is ever completed!

[NJTRailfan]

Orange Line. Since you put it that way I guess the 3 lines o nthe West side is adequete enough. But on the East side do you really think that the 2nd Ave subway is enough or do you think a rebuilding of the 3rd Ave is needed? MTA said the 2nd Ave subway shoudl be completed around 2012 accordign to a report I saw on NBC 4 before I deployed to Iraq.

Even with the 3rd Ave It'll probably cater the same area like starting from 125th St or just above it down to South Ferry where it'll probably terminate. Or is the 2nd Ave more then enough since it's supposedly to be a 4 track ROW (the middle two for Express)

If only the 2nd Ave is required then hopefully the MTA can start both the 2nd Ave and the 7 Extension that's suppsoed to go to PABT then South to NYP and terminate outside of Javits.

[GP38]

so any plans in rebuilding the 3rd, 6th and 9th St Subways or does NYC/MTA feels that there is enough subways running from South Ferry to the to the Bronx?

The 9th Ave el was already replaced, it's the 8th Ave subway.
The 6th Ave el was already replaced, it's the 6th Ave subway
The 2nd and 3rd Ave els were built in the 1800's, and the Lexington Ave subway (upper portion) came in 1918. So that was already the beginning of the end for the two east side els. The 2nd Ave one is the only one that's needed.

[NJTRailfan]

GP-38, Are you sure the 2nd Ave would be enough? I heard awhile back that there was a possibility that another line would be needed to replace the 3rd as well. That one replacement line (The 2nd) wouldn't be enough to ease congestion on the current lines and that the MTA and the City was looking into a 3rd Ave Subway.

[NJTRailfan]

Anyone else have an opinion?

[GP38]

GP-38, Are you sure the 2nd Ave would be enough? I heard awhile back that there was a possibility that another line would be needed to replace the 3rd as well. That one replacement line (The 2nd) wouldn't be enough to ease congestion on the current lines and that the MTA and the City was looking into a 3rd Ave Subway.

I doubt they are looking for a 3rd Ave subway - they can't even get the 2nd Ave subway built after 80 years (it was originally proposed in the 20's).

[orangeline]

Since the topic is forgotten elevated lines....
I would have liked to have seen Sands St. terminal at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge. I understand that most, maybe all, BRT el lines went through that building at one time or another.

[bellstbarn]

I have vague memories of riding twice through the old Sands Street, once when the New York - bound PCC's proceeded from there onto the vehicular roadway outside the el tracks on the bridge (a trip with mother and grandmother, from Coney Island, yes!), plus dad's favor of bringing me on the last train from Park Row to Bridge-Jay and seeing a temporary bumper moved into place after we reached Bridge-Jay. I think the big-roofed Sands Street station was still there for that final trip. However, I never rode the loop that was on another level at Sands Street.

[Otto Vondrak]

What makes the El's forgotten? It's not like they were erased from history.

The Third Avenue El's Bronx portion lasted into the 1970s but was deemed redundant. The real estate developers couldn't wait for the El's to leave Manhattan because they felt they detracted from the value of their property. El's remained in Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn for many years... and still do.