Hudson Terminal and the Permanent WTC Station

[communipaw]

A background article on the permanent WTC station and its relationship to Hudson Terminal is in today's NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/25/nyreg ... html?8hpib

http://hudsoncity.net/tubes/downtowndetails.html

[arrow]

That photo of the old tube is actually the pocket track which was just used as storage. Here is a photo of the actual Ramp J looking into the loading dock (quality not that great):

and here is one after the cast-iron ring section..this is still the original H&M tunnel (you may need to turn your brightness up):


I have more ramp pictures (J&L) and more pictures of the former H&M platform area as well as the basement of the H&M terminal as it looks now.

[braves]

When will you post up those pictures, we would all like to see them.

[Terrapin Station]

Oh man, I would LOVE to see more photos! I've been waiting all my life to see a recent photo of Hudson Terminal and the NYTimes made that dream come true yesterday.

I have a question: heading west out of the loading docks (Hudson Terminal) into either Ramp J or L, where did the tubes end up? I mean pre-9/11/2005, if you were to drive through there, where was the connection between the old Hudson Tubes and the outside world? Did the two "ramps" (tubes) extend all the way through the WTC site to West Street and that's where the connection was? And then that would mean that the WTC was built AROUND the tubes, just like you see in the photos of the construction of the WTC how the original tubes are suspended up in the air?

One last question: the H&M originally entered the "bathtub area" at a much higher elevation. So when they built the WTC terminal in the bathtub, they had to dig a new section of tunnel from somewhere under the river so that the tunnel would end up at a lower level?

Thanks.

[Terry Kennedy]

I have a question: heading west out of the loading docks (Hudson Terminal) into either Ramp J or L, where did the tubes end up? I mean pre-9/11/2005, if you were to drive through there, where was the connection between the old Hudson Tubes and the outside world? Did the two "ramps" (tubes) extend all the way through the WTC site to West Street and that's where the connection was?

I think one of them brought you out to the truck ramp of 7 WTC.

One last question: the H&M originally entered the "bathtub area" at a much higher elevation. So when they built the WTC terminal in the bathtub, they had to dig a new section of tunnel from somewhere under the river so that the tunnel would end up at a lower level?

No, the sections lined with rings were unchanged from the original 1900's construction. Eastbound to NYC from Exchange Place, the tunnel rises up and comes out in the bathtub. Just before the track turns to the right, if you look straight ahead you can see the old tunnel to Hudson Terminal directly across the bathtub, higher up on the wall. The original routing had the rings extending directly across the bathtub on an incline. The old WTC station was built where the new station is, closer to the river and lower. The curve into the station is for two reasons - to allow a gentle downhill grade to the level of the station, and to avoid the really sharp turns that caused problems in Hudson Terminal.

[arrow]

I have a question: heading west out of the loading docks (Hudson Terminal) into either Ramp J or L, where did the tubes end up? I mean pre-9/11/2005, if you were to drive through there, where was the connection between the old Hudson Tubes and the outside world? Did the two "ramps" (tubes) extend all the way through the WTC site to West Street and that's where the connection was? And then that would mean that the WTC was built AROUND the tubes, just like you see in the photos of the construction of the WTC how the original tubes are suspended up in the air?

Ramp J connected the ramps from Barclay St to the east loading dock (former H&M hudson terminal). Ramp L connected the east loading dock to the west loading dock (the much larger, new loading dock for the towers).

Ramp J was so named because it connected the east part of the complex to "Zone J" on the west (bathtub) end. Ramp L was named because it connected to "Zone L". The west part of the site was split into zones J, K, and L from north to south.

The only sections that had the iron rings were what is in the photos. The rest of the ramp was a new structure with the exception of the portion immediately near the east loading dock (see my second picture above) which was not ringed but was still original H&M.

When the complex was built, they removed that suspended tunnel section that you see in the pictures. That was there until they completed the new alignment and switched trains over to that. Once that happened, the tube coming through the bathtub was removed.

[arrow]

I'm working on getting the pics up to a website eventually, but for now here are two more.

It's dark in there so you may have to turn the brightness up on your monitor if you can't clearly make out the pictures.

This is the basement of the former H&M Hudson Terminal. On the left you can see where the original electrical substation was for the old terminal. At this point, you are down at the bedrock.


On this picture (which is pretty much directly above the other picture), you can see the former platform/track level looking from south to north. This was the WTC east loading dock. At the far end of the picture is Ramp J.

[Terrapin Station]

Thank you Terry and Arrow! Your responses and photos have been very helpful and I understand it all a lot better now. This stuff just fascinates me. I'd love to get a tour of what's left of Hudson Terminal and the ramps before they destroy it. What do you think the chances of that are?

[arrow]

The chances are probably not good. However, maybe if it's a group thing we can work something out.

[Idiot Railfan]

This was from an earlier post I made on this topic:

IIRC, the freight entrance was off Vesey Street, near West Street. That brought you to the loading docks for the the north Tower and No. 5 WTC (The Customs House). To go to South Tower or the other buildings, you continued and then made left into what woud have been the north tube, heading back to NJ. (You would be going opposite the train direction. It was one way.) You'd circle through the former station platform area, which had been converted into a loading dock, then continue as the tunnel turned to the right, and arrive at the South Tower loading dock (which was a new structure). From there you would leave the tube and complete the circle through a new tunnel and exit back to Vesey Street.

This is a 25-year-old recollection, but I believe it is reasonably accurate.

[arrow]

Yes, that's completely accurate except the direction was opposite in later years and I believe the loading dock for buildings 1-3 (twin towers and hoteL) and 6 (Customs house) was on the west side and was destroyed, while the dock for buildings 4 and 5 (plaza buildings) is the east side dock (former H&M station).

[arrow]

Since I think everyone still wants to see more pictures, here are some better quality pictures. I have tons more which I plan on putting onto my site eventually.

The first one is of ramp J which went up to the street from the east truck dock. You can see the stub tunnel on the left which leads to nowhere (this was the one featured in the paper awhile ago). The tunnel on the right is the actual ramp and the old tunnel that went west into New Jersey. This ramp was not damaged on 9/11 and was used in the cleanup:


The second picture is another photo of Ramp J behind the first one. This is the original H&M Fulton St Tunnel. Amazing that it survived so long.


The third picture is a pretty rare look at the original H&M substation they built under the terminal. The substation is actually two levels, the lower level is under the holes where the equipment would be and goes down to bedrock. The stairs in the photo are original H&M construction that dates to the early 1900s and is amazingly still in place.