Railroad Forums 

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

 #1100297  by farecard
 
jbvb wrote:The physical/engineering reason the pump trains submerge the cars is this: Hose that won't collapse under significant suction is *heavy* and inflexible, a lot like a pipe of the same diameter.
Hence my suggestion re: a submersible feed pump on a cart. I'm thinking something akin to

Image
or
Image

with a low-head suction pump, powered by the pumper car. Its output would be pressurized, albeit only a few psi, and would feed the suction of the pumper car.

The advantage is you do not need a dozen+ Reach cars for 3 pumpers. (Discharge hose is stored rolled.)
 #1100311  by octr202
 
With Thursday's resumption of partial subway service, here's the MTA's map of the suddenly smaller system:

http://www.mta.info/sites/default/files ... 312012.pdf
 #1100315  by Kamen Rider
 
A, we only have 3 reach cars per pump car.

B. There is NO POWER south of midtown.
Last edited by Kamen Rider on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1100318  by v8interceptor
 
farecard wrote:
jbvb wrote:The physical/engineering reason the pump trains submerge the cars is this: Hose that won't collapse under significant suction is *heavy* and inflexible, a lot like a pipe of the same diameter.
Hence my suggestion re: a submersible feed pump on a cart. I'm thinking something akin to

Image
or
Image

with a low-head suction pump, powered by the pumper car. Its output would be pressurized, albeit only a few psi, and would feed the suction of the pumper car.

The advantage is you do not need a dozen+ Reach cars for 3 pumpers. (Discharge hose is stored rolled.)
Given the MTA's long experience in using diesel powered work equipment what possible advantage would going to a more complex system like you are proposing?
The diesels will operate even in a situation where all power in the area is completely knocked out. Using your system in the current emergency would probably require running cables up to street level generators(diesel powered, BTW) in some of the tunnels in Southern Manhattan.
Your proposal would not eliminate the need for diesel work locomotives to move equipment over powered down sections of track...
I do wonder if the MTA ever considered Diesel Hydraulic units for this type of situation. There are locomotives designed for mining applications that can "wade" through standing water, as they have no traction motors to short out..
 #1100321  by v8interceptor
 
farecard wrote:The name I was thinking of is Hydroflex; see their web page.

What would be protected is the waterproof 3-ph pump on the trolly I propose. That's what would be wet, perhaps submerged.

Salt water is no issue for waterproof cable. It runs to submerged pumps in wells & has for decades.
There are companies making electrically powered submersible pumps for flood control applications like you describe.

http://www.hytransfiresystem.com/produc ... pumps.html

You'd just need to replace the diesel power pack with one that uses third rail power.

The FDNY actually owns a couple of the larger version of this system which they use both for drawing firefighting water from open water sources and pumping out floodwater:
http://fyregeek.smugmug.com/NewYork/FDN ... &k=kqPScfX
 #1100327  by 25Hz
 
I cannot believe my eyes. There is so much water where it shouldn't be all over the city.

We knew it could be bad, and now we know just how bad.

octr202 wrote:With Thursday's resumption of partial subway service, here's the MTA's map of the suddenly smaller system:

http://www.mta.info/sites/default/files ... 312012.pdf

That is crazy.
 #1100336  by merrick1
 
Joe Lhota said seven of the East River tunnels are flooded. From the map the 63rd and 60th Street tunnels will be back in service tomorrow. That leaves eight still out of service. Does anyone know which of the eight is not flooded?
 #1100347  by Rbts Stn
 
lirr42 wrote:South Ferry:
Image
(Photos credit: MTA Flickr)

Wow! The rocks embedded themselves in the wall!!!
 #1100355  by farecard
 
v8interceptor wrote:
There are companies making electrically powered submersible pumps for flood control applications like you describe.

http://www.hytransfiresystem.com/produc ... pumps.html

You'd just need to replace the diesel power pack with one that uses third rail power.
Great video at http://www.hytransfiresystem.com/naf3rd ... finish.flv that shows it in action, including recovering the hose.
 #1100357  by railfan365
 
lirr42 wrote:On this day in 1904 this city's first subway opened, and now 108 years later we're talking about shutting the whole thing down for some rain and wind...
There's two points here. First, with some of the elevated service dating to 1865, it's a lot longer than 108 years. Second, this isn't the first major scal shutdown for bad wheather - and let's not forget the severity of this storm and how rare it is.
 #1100473  by Port Jervis
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote:Limited service as of 11/1, no service south of 34 Street. This map reminds much of the post-WTC emergency maps issued on 9/17/01 and 9/19/01.
This is far worse. The subway will be a hideous disaster tomorrow.
 #1100631  by Jeff Smith
 
Limited Fare Free Service To Be Restored On Subways, Full Service Rolls on BusesSubway service will be limited Thursday, due to ongoing water remediation, infrastructure repairs and power related problems. Limited service will operate along parts of several routes between The Bronx, Upper Manhattan and Midtown. Other lines will run in parts of Queens and Brooklyn, with service terminating in Downtown Brooklyn. Shuttle Bus service will be available at Jay St - MetroTech, Atlantic Ave - Barclays Center and Hewes St in Williamsburg to 57th St and Lexington Ave in Midtown Manhattan. See Bus Stops in Manhattan.

The restoration of subway service was made possible by the hard work of hundreds of Transit Workers who inspected miles of track, removing debris that washed into the system, dried out components and made necessary repairs. In other parts of the system heavy duty pump trains continue to evacuate thousands of gallons of water that filled 7 underwater tunnels. Station Environment crews removed and repaired canopies on elevated stations ripped off by Sandy's strong gusts, while cleaners removed debris. Track Workers checked rails for damage while Signal Maintainers inspected and tested equipment that was submerged under water. Electronic Mchecked critical electrical systems, including crucial communications equipment.

Late Wednesday night, the system was energized and 3rd Rail power was restored. During the night crews will begin running trains throughout the system to polish rials and ensure there are no track or other component defects before service begins.

Because subway service will be limited to roughly half of the system's subway lines, waits will be longer and trains will be more crowded. Customers are advised to consider changing their normal routines to travel later in the morning or later in the evening.

See Hurricane Recovery Subway Map

Bus service will be operating on a near normal weekday schedule. Some routes may be operating with minor detours due to street conditions, customers are advised to look for signage at bus stops. Customers should also expect longer waits and crowded conditions.

^http://www.mta.info/status/1
 #1100643  by pumpers
 
Port Jervis wrote:
R36 Combine Coach wrote:Limited service as of 11/1, no service south of 34 Street. This map reminds much of the post-WTC emergency maps issued on 9/17/01 and 9/19/01.
This is far worse. The subway will be a hideous disaster tomorrow.
I apologize if this has been discussed already, but does the subway get its power from Con Ed locally in different parts of the system? Assuming that's the case, hopefully subways in most of lower Manhattan will come back when power comes back on -- and that flooding is just in limited locations like South Ferry. JS
 #1100655  by Kamen Rider
 
the system is fed through the local substations, each of which has a set area that it feeds power to. No power on the Con Ed grid, no power to the substations, no power to the trains. this is what I've been trying to get farecard to understand for two days. South of 34th street, it's still blacked out.
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