Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

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  by Terry Kennedy
 
JCGUY wrote:At JFK, they charge what is effectively a $5 access fee for the monorail.
Just to clarify - the JFK AirTrain is not a monorail - it is a standard gauge car. The only unusual thing about it is that it runs by magnetic induction. In the years between the Newark monorail and the JFK design, the Port Authority learned about the problems of monorails and decided to go with a conventional system.
  by JCGUY
 
I did not realize that. The two systems are completely different in passenger feel. I have actually courted missed planes due to outages on the Newark system. Apart from better reliability -- based on my own experience -- the JFK system simply seems more substantial and less rickety than the Newark sets. The ride on the JFK Airtrain over the Van Wyck Expressway alignment has quite a bit of the 'wow' factor. On the Newark monorail, I normally get the sense that I could outrun the train on foot.
  by drewh
 
Yes, but the PA knew about all the problems with the monorail before doing the extention for the rail connection. Remember the monorail was built in 2 phases. The first incarnation was for the terminals and parking lots back in the early 90's. Then the system was shutdown for a few years in early 2000's and completely rebuilt and then extended to the new rail link station. The PA was already planning the JFK system at the same time. Instead of doing the rebuild they could have put the JFK type system in.
  by TREnecNYP
 
Only the less frequent 62 & even lesser frequent 67 bus go between NWK & EWR. GoBus28 is actually not so bad (10+ minutes faster compared to the 62, though you do have to shuffle over via LRV to newark broad then stand outside and wait for the sexy 416's to pull up. Not too bad if you are just going to/from the airport vs traveling and trying to have bags etc. PATH to the rail link station would make sense, because airport workers and travelers could use it, taking folks with MASSIVE (unnecessarily large) bags off the NJT and amtrak, which is better for everyone (people have no idea how to go to the airport on the train, or how to properly pack or prepare for security screening EVER). You could use the abandoned ROW, connect it to the stub end tracks over near newark penn using elevated structure. The real problem then really is the price of the turnstile at the airtrain station and how NJT and amtrak would handle losing some customers....

- A
  by MelroseMatt
 
IMO, the monorail at EWR is a cute relic from a world fair, or disney world. You can almost see the animitronic characters and the monotinous, family friendly music, conveying the message that in the future, we will all ride on monorails!

In practical terms, the Newark Airtrain is an isolated, limited system. Its sort of the next step up from a moving walkway; but travel on the airtrain should be measured in feet, not miles.

At Philadelphia International, the Septa regional rail tracks run right up to the terminals, stopping at A, B, C-D and E-F. Then the train runs miles and miles away from the terminal. Most riders get off at 30th street station, or one of the other downtown stations, but they keep going into the northern suburbs (typically terminating at Warminster or West Trenton, NJ). Conversely, the trains also collect outgoing passengers from a large area on their way in. Since the lines are built to regular railroad gauges, electrification and standards, Amtrak has in the past run trains directly to the terminals as well.

The next step in bringing this usefulness to EWR, would be to extend PATH not only to the Amtrak/NJT station, but to loop around through the terminals as well. Imagine going from baggage claim, up an escalator, and onto a PATH train, directly to Manhattan. With this upgrade, I can easily see Amtrak eliminating EWR as a stop altogether, and anyone who wishes to transfer can take the PATH from Newark Penn to their terminal.
  by FRN9
 
MelroseMatt wrote: The next step in bringing this usefulness to EWR, would be to extend PATH not only to the Amtrak/NJT station, but to loop around through the terminals as well. Imagine going from baggage claim, up an escalator, and onto a PATH train, directly to Manhattan. With this upgrade, I can easily see Amtrak eliminating EWR as a stop altogether, and anyone who wishes to transfer can take the PATH from Newark Penn to their terminal.
Sounds good, but expensive, no? The existing monorail platforms are much shorter than PATH trains and the turns seem sharper.
  by OportRailfan
 
Expensive? Yes.

Also beware that the Port Authority paid to have tracks A and 5 aligned for the station, IINM.
  by MelroseMatt
 
Oh, clearly expensive. Call Joe Biden and see if he can get you a loan.
I did realize, living in Philly, I don't have a clue as to the politics required to get this sort of thing off the ground. Compared with that, the engineering is easy.

How do you mean "aligned for the station?" Since PATH is an FRA railroad, were they planning on sharing the platforms with NJT?
  by TREnecNYP
 
I ride the EWR AirTrain several times a week, it is not some disneyland monorail, it is very frequent and carries a LOT of people very quickly between rail link, terminals, and parking areas. I think PATH to the airport is a fine idea, but after weeks of really looking at the situation and thinking, i really think newark penn's entire western approach system would have to be reworked, and as much as there is track to the west for PATH, those tracks are used for storage, so something else would have to be constructed to store a few sets before any extension is considered.

- A
  by mrsam
 
TREnecNYP wrote:... those tracks are used for storage, so something else would have to be constructed to store a few sets before any extension is considered.
The problem with the PATH extension to the airport isn't the storage tracks. New storage tracks would be built near the airport terminal area, there's plenty of land over there. The existing storage tracks would be upgraded for revenue service, and extended to the airport (using either a flyover or a tunnel under the NEC tracks).

No, the storage tracks isn't the problem. The problem is, of course, that it's never going to happen. There's no money to pay for this. The state is broke. The port authority is broke. Everyone is broke. This is a pipe dream. A fantasy.

Not there's anything wrong with a harmless fantasy, of course. But as long as we understand that that's what it is, and nothing else -- a pipe dream.
  by DanielGentile
 
I just wanted to point out there already is a rail link between PATH and the NEC/Airlink station. It runs through the Iron Bound section. It would need third rail electrification, but that would be a lot cheaper than tunneling, fly-overs, and embankments. It also has supports for catenary. Some switch work west of Journal Square might be needed. It would by-pass Penn-Newark, but that already has other options. A stop in Iron Bound would surely help revitalize the area. ROW acquisition is a question, but the route would not be used late nights when Airport is closed, so sharing is possible.

Had to throw it out there, though every thing is getting killed when we need it the most.
  by Tom V
 
I've been waiting a long time to see progress on this project:
PORT AUTHORITY TO UNDERTAKE STUDY ON EXTENDING PATH RAIL SERVICE TO NEWARK LIBERTY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT

Date: Sep 20, 2012
Press Release Number: 130-2012

Plans for direct train service to Newark Liberty from Lower Manhattan move forward

The Port Authority Board of Commissioners approved long-awaited plans to consider extending the World Trade Center-Newark PATH rail line to Newark Liberty International Airport.

The study will explore the extension of the current terminus of the PATH line at Newark’s Penn Station to the existing Northeast Corridor’s Rail Link Station, where travelers could pick up AirTrain Newark for connection to the airport’s terminals and parking lots.

Currently, nearly 75 percent of Newark Liberty’s air passenger market comes from New Jersey, with an additional 15 percent constituting Manhattan residents. Residents from the city’s four other boroughs and other parts of New York state represent nearly nine percent of users.

If the project is pursued, potential benefits to the region would include more than $600 million in design and construction activity over the project’s life, while adding permanent jobs for the link’s operation. Customers in Lower Manhattan and in New Jersey would be able to cut their travel times to and from the airport.

In addition, extending PATH to Newark Liberty would bring another cross-Hudson rail option to commuters. New Jerseyans who work in Lower Manhattan would be able to access a one-seat ride to the World Trade Center by potentially parking at Newark Airport, which also will be part of the study. Finally, the PATH extension would serve as an option for visitors to Lower Manhattan and the National 9/11 Memorial and Museum. By boarding PATH at Newark Liberty, they would be only one ride away from their destination.

“Mass transit options to our airports are essential to the future growth and economic vitality of our region,” said Port Authority Chairman David Samson. “We need another mass-transit link to Newark Liberty International Airport, which served nearly 34 million passengers last year, so this initiative is of utmost importance. We will move quickly to make it a reality.”

“AirTrain at both John F. Kennedy and Newark Liberty airports carries thousands of airport passengers and employees each week,” said Port Authority Executive Director Pat Foye. “Taking a hard look at extending the PATH line in a fiscally responsible manner makes sense, and has the potential to provide New York and New Jersey residents with another hassle-free way to get to and from Newark Liberty International Airport and spur further regional economic growth.”

“Extending PATH to Newark Liberty International Airport has been discussed for a generation,’’ said Port Authority Deputy Executive Director Bill Baroni. “We are now moving this process forward quickly to bring together our PATH system, Newark Liberty International Airport, and Lower Manhattan. It is a regional win for all.”

The study will result in updated cost estimates for the extension, anticipated ridership and potential construction timeframes. Additionally, the review will provide additional benefits of the extension for commuters and other riders not traveling to and from the airport.

The study also will help develop plans for necessary property acquisition, provide a cost/benefit analysis of moving forward and spur coordination with the Port Authority’s regional and national transportation partners on funding and planning initiatives.
http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/press- ... ne_id=1641
  by lirr42
 
Would it be feasible/pratical to charge an additional fee for people going to/from the airport? (like having exit turnstiles that charge the $1.00 surcharge and entry turnstiles that charge the regular fare + $1.00)

That way you keep NJT as a contender in the NY-EWR market and that station doesn't become a waste.
  by Tom V
 
Would it be feasible/pratical to charge an additional fee for people going to/from the airport? (like having exit turnstiles that charge the $1.00 surcharge and entry turnstiles that charge the regular fare + $1.00)
Yes, there are turnstiles at the EWR airport rail link station between the NJ Transit platforms and the Airtrain. You swipe your NJ Transit ticket to pay for the $5.00 Airtrain surcharge. The same would be done with the PATH, you would have to swipe your PATH ticket (or Metro Card) to enter the PATH at say the World Trade Center, that pays the PATH fare. You would then exit at Newark Airport and again swipe your PATH or Metrocard to pay to Airtrain surcharge.

NJ Transit will not be competiting with PATH because they serve different customers:

Those coming from the New Jersey Suburbs, or Mid-Town Manhattan will continue to utilize NJ Transit. Those heading fro Jersey City or Lower Manahattan will utilize the PATH.
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