Does a power outage stop all train operations?

[roee]

Can anyone with knowledge of the technology explain a bit more?

I can't give specifics on Metro-North, but every signal location I've ever been to has batteries at each location, wayside and crossing. The intermediate signals have enough batteries to keep the signals lit and the equipment in the cabin going for a few hours. At control points/interlockers they have enough battery power to not only run the signals and equipment, but also to throw the power switches.

Maybe Metro-North figured they had reliable enough power to not need batteries and figured if they lost power they wouldn't be able to run the 3rd rail trains so no need to have the signals working, but I'd be surprised if that was the case.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Signals have used batteries for close to a century. I've seen photos of lines abandoned 50 years ago where a few badly-rusted signal stands (former semaphores, even) still have their long-dead batteries intact in the signal base. Very old, very time-tested systems redundancy practice.

With low-power LED's replacing incandescent bulbs and solar panels becoming very cheap and readily available these days it's probably possible to run a whole line uninterrupted with diesels and emergency radios during a catastrophic blackout without even losing the signals after several hours. If you look along the average commuter ROW or along regular highways you'll see electrical boxes and communications mounts here and there installed in the last few years with small solar panels sticking off of them (most noticeable if you drive on any interstates that still have those emergency phones at every milepost). Those panels are going to be on every signal stand and grade crossing signal in a few years when the commuter railroads change to LED's like 80% of roadway traffic lights have this past decade. And LED signals take so little electricity those little solar panel mounts are enough to self-sustain the signal's whole daytime power draw, even feeding a little excess electricity into the rest of the grid. Pays back the installation cost so reliably that you'll see them popping up next time a line is due for widespread signal-head renewal or midlife maintenance on the light fixtures.

[Tommy Meehan]

With low-power LED's replacing incandescent bulbs and solar panels becoming very cheap and readily available these days it's probably possible to run a whole line uninterrupted with diesels and emergency radios during a catastrophic blackout without even losing the signals after several hours.

My first question is whether or not the FRA permits this. Without the system being fully powered it's not really functional, is it? The RTCs would have no control over routings and/or signal displays unless the operations center is fully capable of running off backup battery-power as well. Is it?

Metro-North has an ATC system, I don't think they could run that whole system off batteries in an emergency. How about the switches and interlockings?

I don't work for a railroad but I used to work for a cab company. Traffic lights don't work during power failures. In addition to the bulbs or lamps they have a control box that changes the lights from red-yellow-green. In some places like White Plains they are wired into traffic control centers that use computers to do things like lengthen signal cycles during rush hour or 'clear' routes for fire companies responding to fires. When all that goes down I think the batteries stop powering the lights because the control function has failed. There is no control system 'telling' the batteries what to do.

The other factor here is safety. I recall during the massive power failure of a few years ago Marjorie Anders or Dan Brucker explaining why Metro-North DID NOT consider providing emergency train service to move people. That discharging passengers at stations with no lights, located in areas with no street lights or working traffic signals, without being able to effectively communicate to those outlying points or local police was considered unsafe. That it was better to just sit tight, make sure riders and employees were safe and wait until power was restored before trying to resume operations. That seemed very sensible to me.

It seems to me there is obviously a lot more involved to operating trains during a power blackout than just having batteries power the bulbs in the signals.

[roee]

My first question is whether or not the FRA permits this. Without the system being fully powered it's not really functional, is it? The RTCs would have no control over routings and/or signal displays unless the operations center is fully capable of running off backup battery-power as well. Is it?

Does the FRA permit what? Running on batteries? Yes, they most certainly do. And to think that RTC isn't fully backed up with stand by generators is crazy. Also, all locking of signal aspects is done at the wayside signal, meaning that the computers at RTC do nothing more than request switches or signals. There my be some protection written in the code to prevent the dispatchers from trying to make a bad move, but all the true locking protection is in the field. (Locking is what prevents conflicting routes having signals clear across them, i.e. two trains into the same block).

As for Solar, it works so-so is decent sun locations, but is only really useful when there is no commercial power available. Don't expect to see locations with good power converted over to solar. And don't forget that it might not take much to light the LED's, but there is still power hungry control equipment in the cabins that need to drive signals down the track.

[Tommy Meehan]

Does the FRA permit what? Running on batteries? Yes, they most certainly do. And to think that RTC isn't fully backed up with stand by generators is crazy.

Thanks for answering my PM. I too am a fan and have also been riding these lines for quite a while, in my case since long before there was a Metro-North. Please don't think I'm trying to go after you, I'm not. I'm trying to learn.

First about FRA, the regulations a passenger-carrying railroad operates under.

In the factory I work in we can't release a product to a customer until we have documented (in the health and beauty aids business it's called "validating") that the manufacturing procedure we used is safe and effective, that the equipment we used to make the product is calibrated and certified by a outside party, was effectively cleaned prior to use and that the required maintenance is up-to-date. This is what the FDA does to protect the general public. We can't just say something is okay we have to prove it. Ahead of time. Dealing with this burden -- and it can be very burdensome at times -- is how I earn my living.

So I don't know for fact, but I would suspect a passenger-carrying railroad like Metro-North would have to clear the same hurdles. To demonstrate and document the safety and reliability of any backup system they might use to operate revenue train service BEFORE they ever use it or even think about using it. At least I hope they do.

As for the operations center having backup generators, if commercial power is lost what powers the standby generators?

[num1hendrickfan]

As for the operations center having backup generators, if commercial power is lost what powers the standby generators?

More than likely they have a backup diesel generator that kicks in, much like health care and other critical facilities have. Usually there's at least a 24 hour supply of fuel to power these generators ( an extended power outage does pose a problem ). Unlike with health care I don't think the National Guard would resupply a non-essential facilities generator.

[RedbirdR33]

One of the great things about railroads is that they were running before we had computers. In fact they were running before we had electricity. We go back to using manual block signalling (MBS) and switches can be cranked by hand. Its slow going and requires a lot of diligence but in can be done in an emergency situation like the August 2004 blackout. I worked for metro-North and was at GCT that night. The work engines were sent out to clear the main tracks of disabled mu's while the signal maintainers checked the interlockings and insofar as possible straight-railed the switches. The first revenue trains left from GCT at about 340AM . The Hudson Line train ran up track 4 while a Harlem line train ran up track 1 and there was a New Haven Line train on track 4. We stopped at "MO" tower to let off some personnel to operate the signals there and then continued up the Hudson Line making all local stops. It was slow going to be sure running from block to block at about 30 MPH but we were moving. Once we passed "MO" we saw several sets of Bomb trains waiting to go into GCT and pick up the next group of passengers. Nothing ever stops the railroad entirely.

Larry, RedbirdR33

[Tommy Meehan]

The first revenue trains left from GCT at about 340AM. The Hudson Line train ran up track 4....

That's a wonderful story Larry, there must've been some happy happy people on that Hudson Line train. I remember it as a hot humid night and the A/C must've seemed heaven sent.

There's nothing like feeling the wheels start turning after a long long delay.

[MNCRR9000]

One of the great things about railroads is that they were running before we had computers. In fact they were running before we had electricity. We go back to using manual block signalling (MBS) and switches can be cranked by hand. Its slow going and requires a lot of diligence but in can be done in an emergency situation like the August 2004 blackout. I worked for metro-North and was at GCT that night. The work engines were sent out to clear the main tracks of disabled mu's while the signal maintainers checked the interlockings and insofar as possible straight-railed the switches. The first revenue trains left from GCT at about 340AM . The Hudson Line train ran up track 4 while a Harlem line train ran up track 1 and there was a New Haven Line train on track 4. We stopped at "MO" tower to let off some personnel to operate the signals there and then continued up the Hudson Line making all local stops. It was slow going to be sure running from block to block at about 30 MPH but we were moving. Once we passed "MO" we saw several sets of Bomb trains waiting to go into GCT and pick up the next group of passengers. Nothing ever stops the railroad entirely.

Larry, RedbirdR33

Very interesting story. Must have been kind of weird looking out the windows of the train and seeing all the lights off on the traffic lights and buildings. Its good that even if they have a massive blackout like that they can at least run in manual block signaling mode. But I can imagine the worst part must have been being in Grand Central with no air conditioning, must have been a tad warm.

This day in age I am sure that the OCC has everything under the sun in terms of backups, Generators, Uninterrupted power supplies, additional battery banks you name it. A while back I happened to visit the Boston Air Route Traffic Control facility and during the tour they happened to mentioned that they have 6 backup diesel generators, and a huge battery bank which I recall them saying would last a week or 2 which is pretty impressive.

[amm in ny]

<description of MN operations during the Aug. 2004 blackout>

Must have been kind of weird looking out the windows of the train and seeing all the lights off on the traffic lights and buildings

I was on that first Hudson line train that night. You can't see much from the train at night, since the lights in the train are so bright.

As it happened, the power started coming back on as I was walking home from the train station, so I didn't get the chance to experience my home town in the dark.

But I can imagine the worst part must have been being in Grand Central with no air conditioning, must have been a tad warm.

They didn't let us in the station. I spent the night just outside the old taxi entrance on Vanderbilt Avenue. Sometime around 1:00 a.m., they let small groups of us inside to use the toilet (the new ones, under the escalators on the west side, below the transit museum.) One of the restaurants offered people free food from their refrigerators -- the stuff that was going to spoil, anyway.

The weather was warm but not awful. The hardest part was that the sidewalk was too hard to really sleep on. (OK, I know I'm spoiled and plenty of homeless people manage it. It still wasn't fun, and I'm grateful I don't have to do it very often.)

[Tommy Meehan]

I can imagine the worst part must have been being in Grand Central with no air conditioning, must have been a tad warm.

I don't have to imagine it, when I first started using Grand Central there was no air conditioning. It hadn't been installed yet!

I even caught cabs when the old taxi stand at Vanderbilt and 43rd was still in service.

This day in age I am sure that the OCC has everything under the sun in terms of backups, Generators, Uninterrupted power supplies, additional battery banks you name it.....if they have a massive blackout like that they can at least run in manual block signaling mode

Do you see the contradiction here? This is what I'm trying to figure out. If they have everything backed up why did they have to run MBS at 30 mph?

[RearOfSignal]

You can't run in MBS with a bunch of dead electrics all over the place. Substituting MBS for CTC works easier for a planned outage(which has happened) but stringing that together during a blackout can be a challenge. Power goes out trains are gonna stop.

[MNCRR9000]

You can't run in MBS with a bunch of dead electrics all over the place. Substituting MBS for CTC works easier for a planned outage(which has happened) but stringing that together during a blackout can be a challenge. Power goes out trains are gonna stop.

Yeah that's a good point about the electric MU's kind of forgot about that.lol. But at least they can diesels in that case assuming they are able to get all the MU's towed out of the way.

[Ridgefielder]

I can imagine the worst part must have been being in Grand Central with no air conditioning, must have been a tad warm.

I don't have to imagine it, when I first started using Grand Central there was no air conditioning. It hadn't been installed yet!

I even caught cabs when the old taxi stand at Vanderbilt and 43rd was still in service.

O/T but that wasn't all that long ago, was it? I thought the cab stand closed for good post 9/11, and the A/C dated from the mid-90's.

[Tommy Meehan]

What I'm still trying to figure out is, if the Operations Center, signals, interlockings and the ATC system are all fully backed-up and remain operational during a loss of commercial power, why would they have to send maintainers out to set up switches by hand?

That sounds like without commercial power the system is not fully functional.

Or it could possibly be the problem was that after several hours of no commercial power the batteries in the field were no longer being recharged and themselves were down.

I'm just curious to know.

Again about twenty years ago I was riding in the head car on a Brewster express. It was early afternoon, it had been very hot and humid and then a violent summer thunderstorm moved through the area. At Mt. Vernon West there was marble-sized hail falling.

The storm blew over quickly but as we moved through Bronxville station the train made a very sudden stop, possibly the engineer dumped it. Looking out the front window I could see a good-sized tree had come down just north of the station, right across our track, track 1. Our engineer popped out of the cab and said he had seen it start to go. It was a miracle he was able to stop in time. He did a great job.

When the tree came down it also pulled down the 'high line.' Crews responded fairly quickly and within an hour the tree had been removed. We then proceeded north at restricted speed account the signals still being out. I was standing at the front window and we stopped at each dark signal. I think each time the engineer had to get verbal permission to proceed past it. I don't really remember that for sure, though.

En route we saw a headlight coming south -- it was one of the GP35ms -- and the conductor and engineer joked, "hope he's not on our track!' He wasn't, of course, but at first it was hard to tell. Something like that makes you appreciate signal systems!

Anyway we finally made it to White Plains. The agent there at the time (who I was friendly with) told me, "You guys were lucky. There's nothing else running, the signals are out." I told him I knew that, that the tree that went down fell right in front of our train, that if it hadn't been for the engineer being very alert we could have easily hit it.

I was commuting to a job in White Plains at the time so it was a real break in the routine.