Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

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  by Jondude11
 
Yes, of course it is, and it's highly unlikely, but it's just sad that there are some places, like Yorktown, which could really benefit.

  by jacksons
 
It's to bad that such poor decisions were made. I'm sure that downtown Millwood and Yorktown Heights would look alot different today had the railroad stayed. It's interesting, but on the other side of the river in Rockland County, towns that had service, i.e. Valley Cottage, Orangeberg, etc. have the same effect, no downtown, just a few strip malls here and there.
The other lines that should have never been abandoned are the LIRR Rockaway Beach and the Boston & Westchester.
The LIRR should have gone to the airport since the airport opened from MANHATTAN and the Boston & Westchester would have served an underserved secton of Westchester and the Bronx and maybe, just maybe been permitted access to Penn. By now, all of the arguments about "track space" would be moot because the right palms would have been properly greased.
Wouldn't it be nice to go back in time and tell the people responsible for those decisions "Wooa, I wouldn't do that".

  by Otto Vondrak
 
If you could address the lack of adequate parking facilities at Put stations, you could certainly have it back. Look at the Port Jervis Line- around 1983 Conrail removed the passenger main through Middletown and Goshen and stuck with the freight main over Moodna. Looks like a bad move on the outset, but now as more people relocate to Orange County, those stations out in those farmer fields now have the capacity to expand those 500+ space parking lots to accomodate more customers from farther away.

Regarding the NYWB running into Penn... seems like the logical choice, doesn't it? Run from Lower Westchester into Penn Station. Problem: available slots and high rent. Parent New Haven was already paying NYC for access to Grand Central and PRR for access to Penn Station... they couldnt afford any more rents, especially for a poor stepchild operation like the NYWB.

http://www.nywbry.com/
-otto-

  by jacksons
 
Those lines will never be back. My approach was that if they were never abandoned in the first place all of the problems, i.e. the parking spaces, track space, would have all been addressed by now and there wouldn't be any discussion of "what Ifs" today.
What killed the trains was politics & greed.

  by Noel Weaver
 
jacksons wrote:Those lines will never be back. My approach was that if they were never abandoned in the first place all of the problems, i.e. the parking spaces, track space, would have all been addressed by now and there wouldn't be any discussion of "what Ifs" today.
What killed the trains was politics & greed.
I suppose you could call it politics and greed but so far as the Put was
concerned, it was the lack of financial assistance by the state and the
communities that it served. They simply could not see the value at the
time of the passenger service that they had and they continued to tax the
property and facilities for every dime that they could extract from the
New York Central.
The Put went because the locals did not want it badly enough to offer any
sort of financial assistance to the New York Central to try to keep it
running. In the years following the end of the Put if the situation had not
changed drastically, none of the Metro-North service would be with us
today.
In 1958 it would have been a good and correct move to provide the
necessary assistance to keep the Put in operation but today, it would be
totally ridiculous to put any money into trying to get it back.
Noel Weaver

  by Lackawanna484
 
Noel Weaver wrote:
jacksons wrote:Those lines will never be back. My approach was that if they were never abandoned in the first place all of the problems, i.e. the parking spaces, track space, would have all been addressed by now and there wouldn't be any discussion of "what Ifs" today.
What killed the trains was politics & greed.
I suppose you could call it politics and greed but so far as the Put was
concerned, it was the lack of financial assistance by the state and the
communities that it served. They simply could not see the value at the
time of the passenger service that they had and they continued to tax the
property and facilities for every dime that they could extract from the
New York Central.
The Put went because the locals did not want it badly enough to offer any
sort of financial assistance to the New York Central to try to keep it
running. In the years following the end of the Put if the situation had not
changed drastically, none of the Metro-North service would be with us
today.
In 1958 it would have been a good and correct move to provide the
necessary assistance to keep the Put in operation but today, it would be
totally ridiculous to put any money into trying to get it back.
Noel Weaver
The same story happened on the DL&W, Erie, Pennsy etc lines in NJ at about the same time. It's easy to forget in today's era of heavily subsidized commuter authorities, how resistant governments and taxpayers were to providing any help to private rail companies.

The NY Central's west shore commuter and ferry line, the Erie's lines up into Rockland County, etc were all let go for well under the cost of a single loccomotive today. The big 1966 "train off" was over a piddling sum in today's dollars.

  by JoeG
 
We have to keep in mind the context of the times, when we think back 40 years or so. First of all, until the 70s railroads in general were wary of government aid, because they worried that that would lead to government control. Subsidies for commuter lines were resisted because the general view at the time in government was that railroads made lots of money on freight, and could afford to absorb passenger losses. In the fifties and sixties, NE railroads were in financial trouble, but people still thought of railroads such as the Pennsy, the DL&W, and the NYC as rich. If you read books on the Penn Central fiasco, you get the impression that even the management of the PC couldn't quite grasp how bad things were. It's as if they still thought of the Pennsylvania Railroad as the quintessential "widows and orphans" stock. Until the merger, after all, the Pennsy had paid consecutive annual dividends longer than any other stock on the NY Stock Exchange.
  by exploreabandonedrr
 
Harmon & all-

Dieter's posting on another forum identifies these physical impediments at: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... ht=#240475 .

With a realistic demand to extend commuter rail services to Yorktown Heights and perhaps beyond, I believe these business and environmental clean-up issues will be given greater priority. Parking will always remain a problem on all of the branches, but I imagine the towns along the ROW can work something out. Besides, parking fees and fines are a great source of revenue for towns.

Please check-out my NEW forum topic posting "Campaign to Put Back the 'Old Put'" at: www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27836
harmon44 wrote:Many parts of the old Put have been used for roads and other uses. Westchester is still trying to connect the south part because many business used the area and there are now enviromental clean up issues. On the lower end there is not enough property for parking. Probably best to get you bike and remember what was.
  by exploreabandonedrr
 
Jon-

The MTA may not want to cough-up the money to rebuild the Old Put, but I'm always questioning how Peter Calico (sp?) manages the MTA's book-keeping. I recall a few years ago when the MTA pushed for an increase in the subway fare, despite their budget being in the black and some questionable spending by the MTA.

I whole-heartedly support rebuilding the Putnam Division (with re-routing), as have others on the Putnam Division & Putnam Division/Branch topics: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... c&start=30 FOLLOWED BY: www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22014&start=0 My 1st posting was July 4th, later ones are online resources on "Old Put."

Please refer to my earlier posting on physical impediments to the ROW and to access my NEW forum-topic. There's a lot of re-routing that needs to be proposed, in particular around physical impediments in Ardsley, Millwood, and Briarcliff Manor. Since the US Supreme Court recently strengthened a government's powers of Eminent Domain (MNRR is a public service), now may be the best time to reclaim parts of the Old Put's ROW, and take other property to build a straighter and more accessible Putnam Division.

Personally, I would like to see a Putnam Division connect with the Beacon line, but I think I would be dreaming. However, there are several parking lots along the Beacon line!

Charles
Jondude11 wrote:As much as a Putnam Line would really benefit everyone, I don't think the MTA will ever have enough money to put it through. But man I wish they would. Even if it were a branch (kind of like the New Haven Line branches) off the Harlem Line, maybe from North White Plains stopping at Elmsford, Briarcliff Manor, Millwood, Yorktown, Mohegan and stopping. But, I just don't see the MTA coughing up the money.

  by Otto Vondrak
 
Charles- There is no where to build a new Put, just like there is no where to build a new NYWB. The costs far outweigh the benefits. It's all fun railfan conjecture, however.

-otto-

  by Noel Weaver
 
I have said this before and I'll say it again, there is no way the Put will be
rebuilt. The property is in some cases gone, the NIMBY'S would not stand
for it and neither would the taxpayers of New York State or Westchester
County.
MONEY DOES NOT GROW ON TREES.
Noel Weaver

  by Terminal Proceed
 
This forum is about railroading, and not one's views of politics. Previous posting has been deleted.

Kevin

  by Alcoman
 
Terminal Proceed wrote:This forum is about railroading, and not one's views of politics. Previous posting has been deleted.

Kevin
While I agree with you on the above, you must remember that money to rebuild railroad lines often comes from Washington. The current administration has done much to destroy passenger railmtransportation such as Amtrak.
I only am telling it like it is. Not my opinion. Fact is that getting money from DC for new rail lines is like pulling hens teeth. The White House has no problem in spending OUR money on less important things like the war.
If this country is ever to become less dependent on imported oil, then its needs to put more money into Mass Transit. Regardless of anything else, the two topics are tied together since without money, nothing can be done.
  by MNRR Signal MTR
 
How about any track any where that creates jobs . When the upper Harlem extension was built. We got no new jobs put up , just two Mtrs where added back to 2 ND trick Chap . We had these jobs abolished a few years back . They just gave them back so 2 ND trick Brew could cover failures up to MP 82 and not have to worrie about any other problems south of CP 152 .

  by JuniorMan24
 
Why dont they reopen the beacon line. If im not mistaken it goes all the way to danbury. It could have possibilities to tie in the danbury mall dunno seem like a neat idear. However neat doesnt make money does it oh well guess i already answered my own question ha haha.
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