Hartford Line CtDOT New Haven-Springfield - NHHS (Before Launch of Service)

[Jeff Smith]

I think we're all getting a little ahead of ourselves. It would be nice to have more frequent service on this line. Full-build (sans electrification) would be nice. Amtrak would be the likely operator since they already own the line and use SLE equipment. Using surplus SLE equipment (as Dutch pointed out earlier), with even more surplus available if CDOT can get funds (likely or not who knows) for option M-8's. Amtrak could then ditch their branded "shuttle" in favor of the CDOT service, fully funded outside of their congressional budget for their own routes. All they'd be left with then is the Vermonter, right?

Problems? Yeah. Even if they manage to get HSR funding for the whole kit-n-kaboodle, the line won't truly be HSR. Then, once the service is built and running, is Uncle Osama going to fund the operating subsidy, too? That becomes a long-term obligation of CT. And as Dutch rightly points out, CT is highly taxed already. Ironic; years ago, CT didn't even have an income tax, until Weicker passed one (does my memory serve me correctly?).

Can they use the service. Definitely. But they do need to be realistic about it. I do favor full-build, and like their approach, but they do need to be realistic.

[Jeff Smith]

I think it's fair to say that service beyond Springfield is a separate topic for a separate forum. That would be a MA only service, and not within the confines of the MNRR/SLE/CDOT forum. The topic is specifically the NHHS service that has been studied and proposed, and seeks funding.

Not that I'm a moderator or anything, but I humbly think they'd agree.

[Patrick A.]

Sticking just to NH-H-S, any electrification option would double to triple the overall construction cost not to mention the extra cost of ordering more M8's. SLE (CTDOT) has extra equipment and will probably even have more within a few years if indeed the M8's operate the SLE service. It makes sense to get the line running at higher speeds, frequencies,reliability, and with more stations with available equipment before adding wires. If running times between SPG-NHV for expresses can be 1:15 or better and 1:20/25 for locals, then you can get people off I-91 which can get VERY hairy during peak hours. We need to put aside what we would want as railfans versus what is practable and attainable especially in this economic enviornment where the states and the gov't are on very shaky financial footing.

[Ridgefielder]

They will have to have a massive increase in state income taxes and sales taxes and probably gasoline taxes and maybe
property taxes too. Even then how will the people in Torrington, Norwich or Willlimantic Connecticut or North Adams or
many other places in both states that will not stand to benefit one least little bit from a huge waste of money to expand
service for a relatively small number of people in a relatively small area?

Noel- I can't speak for Massachussets, but on the Connecticut side of the line, the combined population of the towns directly on the line for the proposed NH-H-S service is approximately 750k. That's approximately 22% of the population of the entire state of Connecticut. If the politicians in the local towns are on board with this, I'd think that's more than enough votes to get the General Assembly to sit up and take notice. Its either pay for this, or pay for upgrading I-91 and/or the Berlin Turnpike. Neither one is likely to be cheap.

[Tommy Meehan]

Establishing a full-scale commuter train system paralleling I-91 has shot to the top of the Department of Transportation's "to do" list this year, prompted by the hope of landing federal stimulus grants to modernize the existing rail line linking New Haven, Hartford and Springfield.

"It's the most important initiative we have," Transportation Commissioner Joseph Marie said. "We're going to bring it to the finish line."

Reading through the various news stories, studies and support sites linked in this thread I don' really see much mention of electrification. I guess it depends on the amount of stimulus money they can get.

One thing I noticed that was interesting, Commissioner Marie mentioned that Amtrak has already secured Federal stimulus funds for bridge maintenance projects in Connecticut. He's hoping that will allow Amtrak money to be diverted to the NHV-S project.

One factor often overlooked about these kinds of projects. They usually spur a lot of development along the upgraded rail line -- both commercial and residential -- and that means a boost in local property taxes. So it's not all negative cash flow.

[Jeff Smith]

I just like this guy's "can-do" attitude. Now let's see if he "can-do" it.

Electrification at this point is a luxury. If CDOT takes over the service, they'd need more M-8's. Probably not going to happen. They can do it effectively with the equipment they'll have on hand. I'm not sure how much benefit there is to electrification anyway unless the stations are packed closely together, which I don't believe they are. If they can get the funds for the option cars, so much the better. If anything gets electrified first, it would be Danbury, and that's more likely not than likely (to twist a phrase).

I don't know if they need the frequencies they're pushing, but I guess if they run them as "mini-bombs", it may work. Question: are they considering "through" trains to Stamford a la SLE? That would require more equipment since that equipment wouldn't turn right-away.

[Noel Weaver]

They will have to have a massive increase in state income taxes and sales taxes and probably gasoline taxes and maybe
property taxes too. Even then how will the people in Torrington, Norwich or Willlimantic Connecticut or North Adams or
many other places in both states that will not stand to benefit one least little bit from a huge waste of money to expand
service for a relatively small number of people in a relatively small area?

Noel- I can't speak for Massachussets, but on the Connecticut side of the line, the combined population of the towns directly on the line for the proposed NH-H-S service is approximately 750k. That's approximately 22% of the population of the entire state of Connecticut. If the politicians in the local towns are on board with this, I'd think that's more than enough votes to get the General Assembly to sit up and take notice. Its either pay for this, or pay for upgrading I-91 and/or the Berlin Turnpike. Neither one is likely to be cheap.

I did not find the population of the localities DIRECTLY served by this line to total 750,000 but rather somewhere around
600,000. This area is not exactly growing in population either, in fact both Hartford and New Haven are on a decline and
the areas where there is some growth indicated are areas where this line does not pass through.
We are talking big on this particular line while just to the west of Hartford places like Bristol, Torrington and probably
others lack decent BUS service to any point where it is possible to connect with Metro-North. I know if I were still in
Torrington, the place of my birth, I would be screaming about any major expense in upgrading this line until Torrington
had at least decent bus connections to Metro-North somewhere.
Connecticut needs to concentrate any big money to the existing Metro-North corridor between New Haven and the New York
state line and get that completely finished and paid for before spending scarce funds elsewhere. A reasonable amount to
Amtrak could result in a big improvement in service to Hartford and Springfield, anything else is a waste of money.
Get the bridges back in good shape on the main line, get the fourth track back between New Haven and Devon and get
the wire work done then come back and talk.
Noel Weaver

[Ridgefielder]

Noel- I included West Hartford in the list of towns that would be affected by this service, which might explain our different population figures; while I know no station is planned for the town (although some residents, my in-laws included, would love to see a station in Elmwood again) I'd imagine that many residents would make use of the service if/when they reopen Newington.

My main hesitation the idea of paying for Amtrak to put on more trains is the equipment. I don't think Amfleet II coaches are suitable for a commuter run. The vestibules are too narrow, the steps are too steep, and the capacity isn't high enough: 84 seats, vs. 120-odd in an MN Shoreliner car.

[Patrick A.]

Amtrak would only be the operator of the service for the CTDOT. Presumably they would use the Mafersa coaches and P40s not their own equipment.

[DutchRailnut]

and still they can't fill two Amfleet coaches with passengers ??
The steps are just as steep on a MNCR car or Kawasaki car as on a Amfleet II

[Ridgefielder]

What's the internal configuration of the Mafersa coaches like? Do they have the same 3-2 seating as MN equipment?

[shadyjay]

What's the internal configuration of the Mafersa coaches like? Do they have the same 3-2 seating as MN equipment?

Same 3-2 seating and in the same colors, but without the "glossy shine". Cars seem bigger as there are no dividers. Enter in and there are seats facing what would be the window on one side (but bathroom instead)... then main section has regular 3-2 seating. Break in direction of 3-2 seating is met with pairs of seats facing each other with tables. Elsewhere in the car, each seat pair/trio has a cupholder that folds out of the wall. Curious if red/blue seating is standard throughout commuter coaches... as these were the same colors pre- and post-rehab.

[Ridgefielder]

Enter in and there are seats facing what would be the window on one side (but bathroom instead)... then main section has regular 3-2 seating.

I hope the bathrooms function better than those in the M2's!

[Otto Vondrak]

Anyone have any news to report?

[Ridgefielder]

There was a press release out from ConnDOT on Monday entitled "New England Governors Pursuing Joint Regional Vision for High Speed Rail." Improving the Hartford line is cited as one of six key projects for which the six New England governors, coupled with the combined New England Congressional delegation, will work jointly in order to obtain Federal funding -- and by improving, they specifically state double-tracking, bridge replacement and expanded service. Here's the full release: http://www.ct.gov/dot/cwp/view.asp?A=1373&Q=443280.