NH Line - Three Sections?

[Fred G]

If you want a high speed experience, I suggest you take the subway to
Coney Island and ride the Cyclone Coaster.
Noel Weaver

Haha, and it's on rails, too

[Fred G]

Having rode the entire New Haven Line this weekend, I can attest that weekend semi-express service is like riding the slow boat to China. I know why they do it- the demand isn't as great on the weekends, so they did what made sense at the time.

I made a couple of round trips to New Haven this weekend, and I was thinking how great it would be if the train made first stop Bridgeport instead of visiting every station east of Stamford.

Local New York - Stamford
Express to Stamford, local to Bridgeport.
Express to Bridgeport, local to New Haven.

If the service was staggered into three segments, would they simply combine the number o trains? There's a finite number of employees and equipment available, after all.
-otto-

I think you'd have to add a train because if you simply made one of the 2 trains an hour to NH an express, a lot of passengers in the skipped stations would basically lose a train an hour. That and the remaining local east of Stamford would have to stop at every single stop like Greens Farms, Rowayton, etc. Not that there's anything wrong with those places but it just grinds in that stop stop stop local experience.

If I'm missing the point I apologize.

[henry6]

Three tiering, or expressing to Stamford, and second express leap to say Bridgeport may not be as practical as it sounds given perhaps the need for a lot more equipment and crews plus traffic congestion. True, the current traffic patterns were developed if not by MNRR then before by NH. And old habits, concepts, and operating procedures (especially in railroading) rarely change but die long hard, death. It will take a lot of serious thinking and planning to come up with a new fluid, inexpensive, and otherwise practical plan. It will take time.

[Noel Weaver]

Three tiering, or expressing to Stamford, and second express leap to say Bridgeport may not be as practical as it sounds given perhaps the need for a lot more equipment and crews plus traffic congestion. True, the current traffic patterns were developed if not by MNRR then before by NH. And old habits, concepts, and operating procedures (especially in railroading) rarely change but die long hard, death. It will take a lot of serious thinking and planning to come up with a new fluid, inexpensive, and otherwise practical plan. It will take time.

I tend to agree with this, with the amount of track outages, construction, Amtrak trains and other problems, more service is probably not possible
these days.
I guess the commuters today need to thank the loss of heavy industry in
Southern New England for the capacity that this line actually has available
today. In the New Haven Railroad days there was a lot of freight traffic
on this line as well as mail trains and probably not enough track capacity
to even closly consider the level of commuter service that Metro-North
can operate today.
Noel Weaver

[Clean Cab]

It is safe to say that the New Haven Line is maxed out these days. With ongoing projects and a record (for MN at least) number of trains operating, it is not at all uncommon for trains to get stuck in traffic jams. Especially at busy stations like Stamford. Expansion just ain't in the cards.

[henry6]

Still....thinking about extending the locals to Stamford to New Haven and having "express" trains doing every fourth station from GCT (rapid transit rather than railroad operation) would be an interesting concept if it could be planned and pulled off. In effect you might come up with one local and two or three expresses. For instance, the local leaves GCT at the top of the hour; first express at 15 past, second at 30 and third at 45. Or maybe just 20 and 40. Express stops say New Rochelle, Stamford, then every 3rd, 4th or 5th station beyond. Local making all the stops would "feed" the express at those stops with the second or third express actually being on the local's markers at NH. Not having a timetable, etc. in fron of me it is difficult to pinpoint anything, but you get the gist.

[Jeff Smith]

sarge,
thanks,
you have a very good point there.

Your answer on the bus says it all; have you ever ridden the 61? It's not a viable alternative for PC to Larchmont. In short, you'll inconvenience someone else so you can have an express without any semblance of operational feasibility or only the most slight relation to the current topic just so you can pick your nits (and I say this as a "foamer"). I thought your original post had a slight relation to my original post, but I think with your last, you're way off base.[/i]

Thanks, I tried to make it without any type of the ad hominem attacks you'll see here from time-to-time (what was up with the Comet thread?). Sometimes the relative anonymity of a message board leads folks to say things they would never say in polite conversation, i.e. face-to-face. I can certainly understand some of the frustrations, though; thus, my tag-line: foam responsibly LOL.

To keep this post on-topic, it wasn't that I thought what you originally posted wasn't on-topic (that's better left to the mods, who have a difficult job policing these threads already); certainly, if we're talking about another "zone" on the NH, another zone below Stamford is relevant. It's just that I thought your suggesting the bus when I pointed out the add'l transfer an additional "zone" would require was a little off-base. I also think there's far more to be gained from an add'l "zone" farther out from GCT.

Best,

Jeff

[Jeff Smith]

Still....thinking about extending the locals to Stamford to New Haven and having "express" trains doing every fourth station from GCT (rapid transit rather than railroad operation) would be an interesting concept if it could be planned and pulled off. In effect you might come up with one local and two or three expresses. For instance, the local leaves GCT at the top of the hour; first express at 15 past, second at 30 and third at 45. Or maybe just 20 and 40. Express stops say New Rochelle, Stamford, then every 3rd, 4th or 5th station beyond. Local making all the stops would "feed" the express at those stops with the second or third express actually being on the local's markers at NH. Not having a timetable, etc. in fron of me it is difficult to pinpoint anything, but you get the gist.

Wasn't this the operational concept the NYW&B used? I think it could work, but you might need island platforms similar to what the NYW&B had.

I think you, CapeCod, and Mr. Weaver bring up valid points about the heavy traffic and maxing out; especially during peak periods. But doesn't most of the express service already exist in those periods? Without looking at the schedule, I'm fairly sure most of the trains during peak from E. CT don't make all the stops to Stamford already.

I think what we're suggesting is more off-peak, reverse-commute, and weekends, where there may be additional capacity.

FOAM ALERT: I've learend here that the limitations during peak result primarily from MO down Park. Of course, if we were ever to get to Penn or start forward thinking like NJT or the PA did with THE...........

[henry6]

First, the "express service" we are addressing here I thought was for east of Stamford, extending current trains east of there and finding ways to express other trains Stamford to New Haven.

Second, referring to one of my earlier posts above, what I have outlined, is a service that is a "rapid transit" service rather than a railroad service in terms of operating philosophy. Rapid transit is different; it means more frequent service, maybe shorter trains, more "express" services mixed with local service, shorter block for higher speeds and denser traffic. So the question is, "is the NH line of MNRR Stamford to New Haven capable of a rapid transit operation?" And the answer is probably, "no". Therefore the next questions are: what would it take to make it so? how much will it cost? will it be cost effective? is it worth it? And I am sure there are more questions and answers, but it will all boil down to cost effectiveness or return on investment.

[Jeff Smith]

First, the "express service" we are addressing here I thought was for east of Stamford, extending current trains east of there and finding ways to express other trains Stamford to New Haven.

Yes, we are. I think that's what I just said, and that was the original post. As the original poster, I think I know what I meant. Theozno's post, although perhaps misguided, was relative IMHO, but I'm not the moderator. As a counterpoint, is rapid transit any more related to express service east of Stamford?

Second, referring to one of my earlier posts above, what I have outlined, is a service that is a "rapid transit" service rather than a railroad service in terms of operating philosophy. Rapid transit is different; it means more frequent service, maybe shorter trains, more "express" services mixed with local service, shorter block for higher speeds and denser traffic. So the question is, "is the NH line of MNRR Stamford to New Haven capable of a rapid transit operation?" And the answer is probably, "no". Therefore the next questions are: what would it take to make it so? how much will it cost? will it be cost effective? is it worth it? And I am sure there are more questions and answers, but it will all boil down to cost effectiveness or return on investment.

That's a more informed post than I certainly am capable of responding to in detail. I thought it sounded very similar to the NYW&B model. Respectfully, I don't see how rapid transit as you describe it pertains to additional express "zone" services. Again, I defer to the mods on that.

[henry6]

"That's a more informed post than I certainly am capable of responding to in detail. I thought it sounded very similar to the NYW&B model. Respectfully, I don't see how rapid transit as you describe it pertains to additional express "zone" services. Again, I defer to the mods on that.", Sarge.

The mods have nothing to do with the discussion as it pertains to what I said. I merely said that in order to achieve the postulated express service east of Stamford the operating philosophy has to be more like a rapid transit philosophy than a railroad philosophy. And I don't undersand what you mean by "NYW&B model" except to belive that it was (more) a rapid transit system than railroad in that it included local and express services, short headways, and frequent service. In other words I am not discussing rapid transit per se but rather compairing its operating procedure to railroad's in order to achieve the desired level of service.

[Jeff Smith]

By NYW&B model, they built the system with outside and inside platforms at various stations (on the main-line, and WP branch) to accomodate local and express service, similar to many NYC Transit stations. Although that's not what your suggesting, I think skip-stop mirrors that in that you have intermediate transfer stations where you pick up the express. I see know how you're applying that to E of Stamford service. You still end up adding equipment, though, although I suppose you could eliminate throughput into GCT, and end some of the locals in Stamford. I think in the end, that's more trouble than it's worth, although a modified version might work (express service to Bridgeport, ending in Stamford, where you transfer cross-platform to the GCT express that originated earlier in Bridgeport). Again, I think that's more trouble, and people like a one-seat ride.

[Otto Vondrak]

The NYWB was meant to siphon local commuter traffic and divert it to another terminal- because the New Haven paid rent on every train that entered Grand Central- they were looking to reduce the number of trains into GCT. Don't know if that actually worked for them or not... (I say... NOT).

Sarge, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the skip-stop, the NYWB... not really practical. Once again, we're talking about expanding weekend service- not giving everyone doorstep service...

-otto-

[henry6]

Now you're talking the differences between philosophies of rapid transit vs railroad and the problems and decisions that have to be made. That's what it is all about!

[Jeff Smith]

The NYWB was meant to siphon local commuter traffic and divert it to another terminal- because the New Haven paid rent on every train that entered Grand Central- they were looking to reduce the number of trains into GCT. Don't know if that actually worked for them or not... (I say... NOT).

Sarge, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the skip-stop, the NYWB... not really practical. Once again, we're talking about expanding weekend service- not giving everyone doorstep service...

-otto-

Otto, it's not me bringing up skip-stop and NYWB, I was just responding. I agree with you, we were talking about an additional express zone E of Stamford. Try telling that to others, though.....