Metro North WOH Rail Options Using the Tappan Zee Bridge TZB

[DutchRailnut]

enjoy college, don't forget to pay your college loan.
and learn, don't teach.
as for pensions those are negotiated plans, not subject to change.
unless we get somehing better for it.

btw I paid for my pension, more than you ever will...

[Train322]

I would cross on I 84 or Bear Mountain before the Tab. Just based on some things read on this post and other stories about a 56 year old bridge.

[metrony]

Maybe the Governor is only one sane, what programs should be cut to build a bridge.
The state is broke, yet no one believes it, the taxpayers expect the government to keep spending $$$$ like drunken sailors.

It's one thing to spent money on waste and even more studies and another to improve the QOL of life and at the same time improve the infrastructure in the region.

[mtuandrew]

The I-35 bridge's failure and collapse seems widely misunderstood as well. The bridge was actually being rehabbed when it came down. Crews had removed too many support beams.

Indeed it is misunderstood, and this explanation isn't quite right either Support structure on the I-35W bridge wasn't removed, it was inadequate to begin with. Specifically, gusset plates at the junctions of truss sections weren't thick enough to resist warping. Also, several bearings allowing expansion and contraction of the bridge had rusted solid. When a wider deck was added partway through its lifespan, that increased the strain, and it was increased to the breaking point by construction equipment, a new bridge surface being applied over the old, and rush hour commuter traffic. See Wikipedia for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Miss ... ver_bridge

Reading through material on tzbsite.com, I see that twin bridges were eliminated as an option, but that makes no sense. Why not build bridge #1 (future westbound) on the northern alignment, tear down the current Tappan Zee Bridge, and put up bridge #2 (future eastbound) on the current alignment? That also gives you much more space for *gasp* expansion!

I've attached what seems like a reasonable proposal - maybe the Thruway Authority will take note?

[Tommy Meehan]

problem I got is, I do not want to leave my children and grand children the bill for this bridge.

It's not clear exactly how the bridge will be paid for. In part it may be bonds backed by toll revenue.

IMHO here's the real fallacy-

By building the replacement bridge (that will have to serve for a long long time) with only one additional traffic lane and no transit we're not saving our kids and grandkids from having to pay for it. We're leaving them the mess to fix.

But I do agree with Dutch, money is so tight right now maybe they have to build a vehicles-only bridge. With the condition of the current bridge being what it is, they don't have the luxury of waiting for the economy to get going.

[Spuyten Duyvil]

support beams great, the tappan zee bridge is sitting on almost nothing.
the wood pilings are totally eaten/rotted due to changing silt level and attack by marine worms.
yet this site denies that:
http://www.thruway.ny.gov/projectsandst ... about.html

yet when there is smoke there is fire right ??

and
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_2_t ... ridge.html

according to the Department of Transportation, current conditions requiring modification include “diaphragm beam cracks,” “bearing deterioration,” “column top deterioration,” “column base deterioration,” and “cross-beam deterioration.” You don’t have to be an engineer to know that those things aren’t good.

So your contention is that the state DOT and Thruway Authority have conspired to falsify/keep hidden the results of last year's thorough piling inspection and the ongoing monthly inspections, and are knowingly permitting ~140,000 vehicles a day to use a bridge that has "totally rotten" pilings?

[DutchRailnut]

yup because of lack of alternative, don't ever thing Government is honest ask any of WTC survivors or those involved in Nuclear testing

[DutchRailnut]

Riverkeeper: 'On the cheap' Tappan Zee Bridge plan doesn't address congestion, pollution


OSSINING — The state's plan to replace the Tappan Zee Bridge doesn't adequately address traffic congestion and air pollution and could harm the Hudson River and surrounding communities, Riverkeeper officials warn.

"Why are the lead state and federal agencies even bothering with an environmental impact analysis, when they've already decided what they're going to do: build an on-the-cheap, no-mass-transit bridge?" said Paul Gallay, the organization's president.
"Before committing scarce public dollars, our officials need to study alternatives that harm the river less and actually do something to bring our transportation system into the 21st century."

rest of article at:
http://www.lohud.com/article/20111127/N ... |Frontpage

[Jeff Smith]

I'd like to resurrect an oldie but goodie concerning the initial scoping, now scrubbed from the web-site. It ocurred to me while trolling the Lackawanna cut-off thread with references to garbage trains.

When was freight use of a CRT line ruled out? I would think the trackage fees from freight would be a useful source of funding for the line, and I would think NS would jump at an EOH access to NYC that would compete with CSX' West Shore access, not to mention the access that CSX already has via Selkirk to the Hudson line.

[DutchRailnut]

even if they got acces to bridge would not give them acces to New York.
to get acces the STB (surface transportation boad) needs to see the need for NS to get trackage rights, and diminish the income potential for CSX or to see the economic benefit to upstet the current track acces.

[Tommy Meehan]

If Norfolk Southern wanted access (and to my mind that is a pretty big if) I'm sure NY State DOT would be in their corner. They want competition for CSX. Didn't they oppose CP/D&H pulling out of the Oak Point service? Sending freight trains over the bridge's CRT line might require some design changes and a more expensive bridge but if the money was available (and we know it's not) NYSDOT would probably be okay with that too.

The problem is I don't see NS being interested in this right now. They've stopped using the Southern Tier as a through route so how would they get to the bridge?

Maybe at some future date access to rail lines east of the Hudson might be attractive to NS but not now. Too expensive and not enough traffic, that's my feeling.

When was the freight option dropped? I don't know. Why? Possibly lack of interest.

[Jeff Smith]

I'll go back through the thread and see if there's some back access to the links or doc's. It was more of a curiousity on my part. I know it's not realistic; this was more of a what-if / why-not question anyway.

[Tommy Meehan]

The interesting thing is, the Port Authority of NY/NJ is pushing for more trans-Hudson rail freight service. I saw a PA presentation on this. However they're looking at carfloating. This is one of the major reasons they purchased both the New York Cross Harbor Railroad and land at the former Greenville Yard in Jersey City.

There just doesn't seem to be much interest in using the Tappan Zee Bridge as a freight shortcut.

[Adirondacker]

The interesting thing is, the Port Authority of NY/NJ is pushing for more trans-Hudson rail freight service. I saw a PA presentation on this. However they're looking at carfloating. This is one of the major reasons they purchased both the New York Cross Harbor Railroad and land at the former Greenville Yard in Jersey City.

There just doesn't seem to be much interest in using the Tappan Zee Bridge as a freight shortcut.

They looked at carfloats and came up with "not enough capacity, too slow, too labor intensive" The Port Authority has many pages on the proposed tunnel. Wikipedia has a good synopsis of it all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-Harbor_Rail_Tunnel

[Tommy Meehan]

They looked at carfloats and came up with "not enough capacity, too slow, too labor intensive" The Port Authority has many pages on the proposed tunnel. Wikipedia has a good synopsis of it all .

I like Wikipedia but in this case it's, I don't want say out-of-date, but it's not recent and it concerns mostly the tunnel not the carfloat.

I get the PA's e-bulletin every month (Growing The Region) and I can guarantee you and everybody else they are going ahead with the enhanced and expanded rail-marine transfer plan. Take a look at the links. The first is a press release the Port Authority itself released a year ago:

The Port Authority Board of Commissioners today authorized the agency to move ahead with the purchase and redevelopment of Greenville Yards, a century-old rail yard in Jersey City, N.J. that will serve as the lynchpin to removing up to 360,000 trash trucks annually from trans-Hudson crossings and New Jersey highways by moving New York City's sealed containerized solid waste and other commodities by barge and rail when appropriate facilities are completed by 2013.

http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/press- ... ne_id=1281

Below this is a news item from three weeks ago carried on a marine site reporting that the PA remains on schedule with this project:

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has hired HDR to rehabilitate the Greenville Yard in Greenville, N.J., to improve ongoing rail-to-barge-to-rail freight movements across New York Harbor.

http://www.marinelink.com/news/rehabili ... 41430.aspx

Adirondacker maybe this news hasn't reached the North Woods yet but on this end of the state it's been well-reported, believe me!