Railroad Forums 

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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 #1232822  by SlackControl
 
It seems to have already been covered, but to put it simply...whether a train is being pulled or pushed by a heavy locomotive, all it takes is one car to derail and dig into the dirt to cause a catastrophic wreck, and any cars trailing behind that one derailed car will pile up on top of the first one, even if the brakes apply in emergency. All the emergency brakes do is squeeze the wheels a bit tighter than a regular brake application. Then, since the wheels are being slowed down on the steel rails, it will still take a little while for the cars to be brought to a stop. A car still on rails with an emergency application will take a lot longer to slow down than a car that is off the rails digging into the dirt. Look at any freight derailment on main track. It almost always results in jackknifed cars piled up on top of eachother. And, I don't recall ever seeing a freight train being led by a freight car with the engines on the back, other than switching movements.

This video shows a train where the first few cars were derailed by a tornado. Once the first few cars derailed, the brakepipe had to separate initiating an emergency brake application trainline, but yet the rest of the train keeps coming and the cars pile up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYubpuIe3cw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 #1232825  by DutchRailnut
 
freight cars are complete different animal.
different couplers
different braking
different dynamics caused by loading etc.
the experts say there is no difference, so leave it like that.
not what your feelings are about it.
 #1232831  by DutchRailnut
 
the slip slide panel is always active, a flat wheel increases the chance of derailment.
your car's ABS system is active all time right ?
 #1232862  by DutchRailnut
 
freight couplers would not allow push pull, the type H coupler often referred to as tight lock couplers do, and not only keep couplers inline the prevent jack knifing of passenger cars and are a federal requirement.

and what do they know in Choo Choo high ?? only whats on paper, not whats in real world, besides every railroad uses different standards, a airbrake manual for one railroad does NOT mimic a airbrake manual for another railroad.
 #1232931  by Chicagorail1
 
IN GCOR if passenger cars our not PUSH/PULL designed we cant push them faster the 30 mph, 20 mph for freight cars. Freight trains our a different beast very different beast. You can take a freight guy and he will be able to run a passenger train with little training except learning the equipment and the PC/rule book(lot of commuter lines and Amtrak call freight guys going to PAS "test out" engineers) of the route , but a passenger engineer who never ran heavy freight is going to have to be trained almost from the ground up before being cut loose.

With a Passenger train ,breaking is simplified, an engineer can take more air or less air on a passenger train to change the degree of braking force on the fly. On Freight trains, you get one set and have to kick them of if you took to much of a bite. Dynamic Braking is blended on a lot of modern passenger locomotives which also simplifies train handling, this is not an option on modern freight locomotives.

if an engineer is lucky enough to get a train with good dynos, you still might have to augment the braking with a little bit of a set. Plus with freight , a lot of times your pulling one part of your train while the other half is pushing you because freight trains our so long. Thats why you cant compare any of this to the CSX derailment early this year. Different dynamics, different braking, different skill set to run the train, different train handling. Also people dont realize push/pull passenger cars our DESIGNED for push/pull physics and forces.

EDIT: I guess my point here as a professional railroader is.....PUSH/ PULL cars and trains our DESIGNED to be PUSHED at HIGH SPEEDS. Its not like taking an AMTRAK train of 7 Superliners and shoving them at 70 mph with a cab car on the point (Amtrak California and Surfliner Superliners where rebuilt for push/pull operations),or taking 7 freight cars with a cab car on the point and shoving them at 70 mph. Both of those situations would be disastrous. PUSH/PULL operations our just as safe as PULL/PULL
 #1232953  by Dieter
 
Push-Pull is indeed perfectly safe. Yes, it's utilized all over the world today. But our fears become reality as basic physics comes into play when the lightweight cars leave the track on a curve while being pushed by a heavier locomotive. The momentum of the locomotive at the rear comes into play effecting the alignment of the cars, leading to what we witnessed in this wreck.

Had the locomotive been pulling on point, there is a far better chance the coaches may have remained upright with fewer injuries.

I feel sorry for poor Mr. Rockefeller who witnessed what must be every Hudson Division Engineer's worst nightmare; the river coming towards one rather quickly without control of the situation. With Push-Pull in this case it could have been a lot worse, especially if the train ultimately collided with a solid object like a bridge abutment, or at that speed in that area, the rock cut. I haven't seen it since the big wreck at Metuchen in the early 1960's on the Pennsylvania, but my greatest fear of a passenger wreck with the locomotive pushing from the rear -- at excessive speed -- is telescoping of the coaches.

I'm so sorry this happened, but it could have been ten times worse. If yesterday's wreck had happened two or three trains later, that train would have been jammed with Daytrippers. Metro North is a prime candidate for Push-Pull service, given the lines don't have very many places where a train can fall from a great height or where a train can roll down a steep ravine like a toy. The runs are relatively straight permitting cruising speeds between seventy and ninety. However we can all think of multiple lines where Push-Pull should be prohibited because of what can happen, when things don't go exactly as the board room thinks they should. This accident is a prime example of "What IF We Had A Wreck On A Curve with the Locomotive Pushing from the Rear?".
 #1232955  by Dieter
 
johndmuller, those piston like objects at the chassis ends on European coaches are called BUFFERS and to absorb the shock of impact, I think they're a brilliant idea to help prevent telescoping in a wreck. An interesting link on contemporary Euro buffers;
http://crashtechnology.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 #1232979  by s4ny
 
Assume that the engineer was aware that there was a problem as the train accelerated from 60 MPH
towards 82 MPH. He was in the Cab Car and assume he was unsuccessfully trying to set the throttle to zero and apply
the brakes.

If the engineer had been in the locomotive would he have had additional instruments
to indicate there was a problem and the cause of the problem and additional means
to slow the train?
 #1233010  by ryanov
 
p42thedowneaster wrote:The commuter train is already a heavily subsidized luxury option, so why not slow it down a bit?

I object to the initial dopey characterization. You do realize that taking the train is cheaper than owning a car, right? I'm not one to call names, but this statement is extremely out of touch.
Save fuel, save steel, extend service life of equipment, make crossings and station platforms safer, reduce noise, improve reliability, and allow for longer trains. In return, improve onboard services, repair or improve seating, add faster wifi, restrooms, and vending services if needed. With stations so close together, having a 30-35mph top speed would make very little affect on most schedules.
You don't change the top speed without changing the average speed. That's just math.
Last edited by ryanov on Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1233014  by ryanov
 
Tommy Meehan wrote:As for the people who died, do we even know that they were in the head car? It sounds like three of them were ejected from the train through broken windows. Did windows only break in the cab car?
The information was provided somewhere, but I can't recall the source. If I'm recalling correctly, the one that died without being ejected was in the first car, and there was one person each in the three cars behind that were all ejected.
 #1233109  by Ridgefielder
 
ryanov wrote:
p42thedowneaster wrote:The commuter train is already a heavily subsidized luxury option, so why not slow it down a bit?

I object to the initial dopey characterization. You do realize that taking the train is cheaper than owning a car, right? I'm not one to call names, but this statement is extremely out of touch.
If commuter rail is a subsidized luxury, then so are indoor plumbing and electric light. There are 23.4 million people in the New York metro area-- 7.3% of the population of the US-- living on 0.35% of the nation's land area. If they all tried to drive at once, the whole region would seize up. That's why the City and State governments started subsidizing mass transit as far back as the mid-1920's.
 #1233265  by Head-end View
 
I'm surprised to learn from some above posts that push-pull cars are specifically built for that type of use. I never knew that. Can some of you explain to a non-railroader what the differences are between push-pull and standard passenger cars?
 #1233272  by DutchRailnut
 
train line controls , the door setup, PA etc.
 #1233275  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Push-pull cars are equipped with wiring and equipment to allow the cab car in push mode to connect to the locomotive and other signaling and controls in addition to HEP.

For reference: Cab photo of ConnDOT 6221 (one of two ConnDOT Shoreliner IV-A cabs delivered in 2002, other being 6222)
 #1233279  by Head-end View
 
Hmmm, train-line controls, of course. I should have thought of that. But Dutch, what's different about the door set-up and PA?