Extending service on the Harlem and Hudson lines

[Lackawanna484]

Regarding the Hudson Line service, if Metro-North took it over, it would most likely simply operate the Amtrak equipment into Penn, in the event that Amtrak was no longer the operator.

Regarding the impact of commuter service on communities which don't have it, it is the local governments who have the power and responsibility to regulate growth in the best interests of their residents. Their failure to do so is nothing more than that.

Blaming more efficient transportation for sprawl is like blaming the Atkins diet for increased obesity -- it's a failure of the will of the people most responsible.

----------------

I'd doubt MetroNorth would operate into Penn Station. That would require additional staffing, tickets, mechanical support etc in another location. Although top leadership would like more interface between LIRR and MN, it's highly unlikely that MN crafts would willingly accept LIRR people working on MN equipment if it came to that.

My bet is, in the unlikely case ATK gives up the Empire Route and Mn takes it over, the service would operate into GCT, where it belongs, IMHO. I'd like to see a few Boston Acelas start/finish here, too.

[LI Loco]

You can't have additional service in Penn Station. 1) equipment is not compatible to enter Penn Station complex 2) not enough room in Penn for the service as it stands now.

I never said that it was simply a management decision to add service to Penn. IIRC, the studies acknowledged this and implementation was supposed to happen *after* the LIRR started using GCT, which would free up some slots on 13-21 at NYP.

Nester

The current access from the West Side line restricts Amtrak trains to tracks 1 - 7. I'm hard-pressed to see how Metro-North trains would be able to access tracks 13-21.

[Tom Curtin]

I really can't picture MNR taking over NY-Albany service from Amtrak. The Empire Corridor is a big Amtrak operation and quite clearly "intercity" in nature. Yeah, I know various kinds of talk have been around on this matter going back into MNR's early years in the mid 80s.

What I can picture is Hudson service extending north making some selection of local stops as far as Tivoli (I pick Tivoli because I understand it is the last stop in Dutchess County and MTA's [MNR's parent] statutory authority ends there)

[Lackawanna484]

The operational issues of expanding north to Tivoli are relatively simple, compared to some other matters.

The freight volume is the same at po'keep and Tivoli. Getting a CSX signoff on the expansion would be pretty simple, I'd guess, esp if NY state offered to buy the trackage and convert it to the same status as Po'keep south

Since Amtrak doesn't serve Hyde Park or Tivoli, I don't think there is even a need to get their OK or that of their unions. Getting a buy-in from town authorities could be ferocious, though...

[nomis]

Mod Note: Moved the new 2017 posts to the more appropriate PSAS thread. And until the Harlem or Hudson wants to extend out cardinal northward, this thread too shall sit dormant and shall trailblaze our foamer ideas of extending service into non-MTA counties.

[Backshophoss]

In the early years of the PC Metro Region,the Hudson Line Divsion Post was near Rensselaer at the bridge that carried B&A freights to Selkirk.
Not long after the 1st attempt of the Lake Shore was discontinued,the Port Road branch was torn out.
The "purchase of service" agreement with NY State ended commuter service at Poughkeepsie on the Hudson Line,Dover Plains on the Harlem Line.
At a point of time before CR was created,the Division Post was moved to CP75,with the rest of the line transferred to the NE Region.
Also at that time,the Division Post on the Harlem Line moved from near Chatham to MP 77,just north of Dover Plains(aka BLS Brook by CR)
The remains of the Harlem Line north to Wassaic(Millerton) were turned over to the NE Region.

[Ridgefielder]

I've seen an online newspaper article that gives a few reasons why Metro North should be extended from Poughkeepsie. One of the oft repeated ones has to do with a fear of running out of parking at POU. At least from this perspective then there is no way service can be expanded north. Both Rhinecliff and Hudson are pretty much at capacity with the current Amtrak services and while Rensselaer isn't there is a reason why commuter services to Albany ended when (or slightly before) the MTA came around........

Would you necessarily have to run all the way to Rhinecliff to avoid a parking problem at POU? Seems like it would make more sense to poke a couple of trips north to Hyde Park or Staatsburg instead.

[Patrick A.]

Would have to imagine anyone north of POU is in 'Super Commuter' territory and would gravitate more towards Amtrak (express service) versus an MNCR type service making local or near local stops from POU down to Croton Harmon. RHI-NYP on Amtrak varies from 1:34-1:50. MNCR from POU to GCT 1:33-1:47 and is ~20 miles shorter. even if you are charitable and assume a 60 mph average speed the MNCR time would be 1:54-2:10.

The scenario where one would choose this extension service would be if one worked on the East Side in Manhattan and got a meaningful enough of a price differential versus Amtrak (don't know the fare breakdowns). The reduced travel time between work and GCT could be meaningful enough to offset some of the added en-route time, but would it be enough to warrant service? Methinks the current service levels provided by Amtrak are more than adequate to cover that catchment area.

[Rockingham Racer]

There was a plan to terminate at Staatsburg about 10 years ago. Strong NIMBYism put a halt to that in short order. I'm hard pressed to think that there'd be any less opposition to the plan nowadays.

[Jeff Smith]

I think the current termini are just fine. How far is too far for a "commuter zone"? The current Poughkeepsie run (COVID schedule) is just a tick under 2 hours. The current Wassaic run (I used to do that from Patterson) is 2.5 hours!

Maybe you could run a peak hour DMU or mini-bomb from Poughkeepsie up to Tivoli. That kind of staging might make sense; Amtrak dispatches now above Division Post (can't remember if they've bought the line). But they'll have to find the funding for it in any case, even though Dutchess is in the MTA zone.

Millerton? Cute town. But I don't think they want the traffic coming through; the rail trail generates quite a bit, I think. Wassaic is not that hard to get to, and has a huge lot. It's just a little south of "downtown" Amenia.

[Pensyfan19]

I think the current termini are just fine. How far is too far for a "commuter zone"? The current Poughkeepsie run (COVID schedule) is just a tick under 2 hours. The current Wassaic run (I used to do that from Patterson) is 2.5 hours!

Maybe you could run a peak hour DMU or mini-bomb from Poughkeepsie up to Tivoli. That kind of staging might make sense; Amtrak dispatches now above Division Post (can't remember if they've bought the line). But they'll have to find the funding for it in any case, even though Dutchess is in the MTA zone.

Millerton? Cute town. But I don't think they want the traffic coming through; the rail trail generates quite a bit, I think. Wassaic is not that hard to get to, and has a huge lot. It's just a little south of "downtown" Amenia.

I would say that 130 miles is my limit for commuter rail service. South Shore Line from Millenium Station to South Bend is 90 miles, Penn station to Greenport is 94 miles and Penn Station to Montauk is 117 miles. However, I feel with this in mind, it would be most beneficial to have seperate services to split up the trip, as service between Penn and Greenport is split up at Ronkonkoma while going into diesel territory. The same should be done for the Harlem line, as I suggest a diesel "shuttle" starting from Brewster or Southeast and going all the way to Chatham along most of the original right of way/railtrail (they're called rail trails for a reason: so they could be used for rail service if needed). It would be especially helpful for transfer to a Springfield-Albany or Pittsfield-Albany service at Chatham. Even more so, I also propose a seprate service, does not have to nbe Metro North, between Poughkeepsie and Albany in order to cover all of the local stops, which Conrail's service also covered, between the two regions. This would also be similar to the Surf Line between LA and San Diego, as commuter service between those two cities are split up between two different commuter services at Oceanside.

[russellsal8]

Service to Millerton could be a nice service, kind of like a more weekend/vacationer type service like with Manitou or Breakneck ridge. So perhaps 4 round trips on a weekend and then maybe a bare-bones like 2 round trips on the weekdays. The primary commuter service could still originate out of Wassaic. That said, it's a good 10.5 extension of track for not a lot of payout. The town of Millerton would probably prefer the rail trail over an actual rail.

[NaugyRR]

Millerton? Cute town. But I don't think they want the traffic coming through; the rail trail generates quite a bit, I think. Wassaic is not that hard to get to, and has a huge lot. It's just a little south of "downtown" Amenia.

Can confirm traffic sucks Friday - Sunday, plus they're pretty far into expanding the rail trail north to Copake, so don't expect that to go away/get modified without a huge fight. This is the same town that's suing their VFW over an LED informational sign.

[njtmnrrbuff]

Yes, Wassaic is very close to the Amenia Business District which is pretty nice. We don't need the Harlem Line to go past Wassaic. The station, yard, and parking lot are situated in a fine location where ample room was available to build the facilities. The train ride from Wassaic to GCT is already long enough. It might be nice to have shuttle buses connecting Wassaic and other villages like Millerton and back during the warmer months. I remember there used to be a bus running between Wassaic and Great Barrington but it got cancelled. Wassaic Station sees cars from not only Duchess County and parts of Columbia County in NY State. Western Litchfield County residents use Wassaic Station as well as Berkshire County in Mass.

[Pensyfan19]

Yes, Wassaic is very close to the Amenia Business District which is pretty nice. We don't need the Harlem Line to go past Wassaic. The station, yard, and parking lot are situated in a fine location where ample room was available to build the facilities. The train ride from Wassaic to GCT is already long enough. It might be nice to have shuttle buses connecting Wassaic and other villages like Millerton and back during the warmer months. I remember there used to be a bus running between Wassaic and Great Barrington but it got cancelled. Wassaic Station sees cars from not only Duchess County and parts of Columbia County in NY State. Western Litchfield County residents use Wassaic Station as well as Berkshire County in Mass.

In that case, what about a Wassaic to Chatham shuttle? I would personally go for the Southeast/Brewster shuttle to Chatham since that is going through the entire diesel portion of the route. However, the Southeast - Wassaic service could still exist as a halfway point. The LIRR has a halfway shuttle along the Mainline between Ronkonkoma and Yaphank instead of going out all the Greenport at times.