Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

[Silverliner II]

I'm still a bit concerned about Rotem, as they don't have such a great track record in Taiwan. Their passenger cars and locos have vibration problems, and Rotem was actually barred from doing more CR bids in Taiwan.

Imagine the problems if the 70+ new bi-levels come in, then get broken or face mechanical problems... then we'll be out 70+ bi-levels and also out of like 200 million bucks that could have been spent on new K cars by Kawaski. Why try a questionable company when we already know that the K cars have worked for us in the past?

The MBTA needed to do more research than "Okay, we only have to spend $10 million less for questionable cars never mind the fact that we may end up paying more than we would for the K cars in the future to repair or replace defective Rotem cars."

Sorry.... had to rant for a bit in there.

Oh geez....way to get me worried. SEPTA has 120 EMU's from Rotem on the way...the mockup is here in Philly, and the first three production cars are due in April of 2009, with our order completed basically right ahead of the propose delivery dates for the MBTA cars. And they have cars for Metrolink in LA due out right ahead of the SEPTA order...

And yes, SEPTA specified the quarter-point door design. Basically, they went after something similar to Metro-North, but with steps and traps for our low-level platforms. The door positioning had to be adjusted towards the center of the car because of the trucks, but think of it as a cousin to the M-7. More like an M-8.

And the other reason for the quarter-point doors comes from FRA standards for collisions...using the standard end-door design wouldn't have worked on the cab ends due to collision post positioning (which is why the new NJT cabs since the Comet V's have no doors at the engineers position and no trap and steps on the conductor's side at the door.

[realtype]

Oh geez....way to get me worried. SEPTA has 120 EMU's from Rotem on the way...the mockup is here in Philly, and the first three production cars are due in April of 2009, with our order completed basically right ahead of the propose delivery dates for the MBTA cars. And they have cars for Metrolink in LA due out right ahead of the SEPTA order...

And yes, SEPTA specified the quarter-point door design. Basically, they went after something similar to Metro-North, but with steps and traps for our low-level platforms. The door positioning had to be adjusted towards the center of the car because of the trucks, but think of it as a cousin to the M-7. More like an M-8.

And the other reason for the quarter-point doors comes from FRA standards for collisions...using the standard end-door design wouldn't have worked on the cab ends due to collision post positioning (which is why the new NJT cabs since the Comet V's have no doors at the engineers position and no trap and steps on the conductor's side at the door.

Difference between Rotems and M7/M8: the parts won't start falling off the M7/M8's two weeks after delivery. Metrolink, MBTA, and SEPTA will all soon be sorry. It might be cheaper to go with Rotems now, but in the long run it'll cost them. I give the cars ~2-3 before they need overhauls.

If not Kawa. or B'dier, even Alstom would have been good enough. Even though Alstom's track record is less than stellar, they've at least actually completed some succesful projects...

[diburning]

[quote="kelvin123789"]I don't think that the design is sufficient enough for the lower level platforms.
Old people will not able to climb the train. Instead they should try to make high level platforms at crowdy stations.
They should take an example from UTDC. They are building the 01700's to look much like the 01500/01600's, even though there are actually numerous differences like steel construction instead of aluminum, etc.
=======================================================================================================
Kelvin

Yes, but some of the lines are on freight mains and freight mains cannot have full length high level platforms because of clearance issues. Creating a coach that can only board from high level platforms would mean that it would only be able to run on the old colony lines.

[RailBus63]

Difference between Rotems and M7/M8: the parts won't start falling off the M7/M8's two weeks after delivery. Metrolink, MBTA, and SEPTA will all soon be sorry. It might be cheaper to go with Rotems now, but in the long run it'll cost them. I give the cars ~2-3 before they need overhauls.

If not Kawa. or B'dier, even Alstom would have been good enough. Even though Alstom's track record is less than stellar, they've at least actually completed some succesful projects...

The same could have been said about Hyundai's automobiles based on their first stumbles in the U.S, market back in the 1980's. Yet the manufacturer showed that they could learn from their mistakes, and today produces a very reliable product with high customer satisfaction.

[realtype]

Difference between Rotems and M7/M8: the parts won't start falling off the M7/M8's two weeks after delivery. Metrolink, MBTA, and SEPTA will all soon be sorry. It might be cheaper to go with Rotems now, but in the long run it'll cost them. I give the cars ~2-3 before they need overhauls.

If not Kawa. or B'dier, even Alstom would have been good enough. Even though Alstom's track record is less than stellar, they've at least actually completed some succesful projects...

The same could have been said about Hyundai's automobiles based on their first stumbles in the U.S, market back in the 1980's. Yet the manufacturer showed that they could learn from their mistakes, and today produces a very reliable product with high customer satisfaction.

Actually, IMO, the automobiles are just as bad as the trains. Hyundai (and Kia) isn't taking any market share away from the Japanese brands, just the Americans. The cars have improved...above American standards, not Japanese or Eurpoean.

Just look at the KTX train in Hyundai/Rotem's home country. The brand new Rotem-built trainsets are much more unreliable than the Alstom TGV sets they're based on.

(sorry for the off-topic post)

[diburning]

FYI, Rotem IS Hyundai's Railroad division. It's just like for EMD used to be the railroad division of General Motors.

Therefore, Rotem = Hyundai.

In reality, Hyundai cars are cheaper than their Japanese counterparts because of two reasons. 1. They need to compete with them, and 2. The materials used aren't as high quality as the Japanese cars.

Knowing that, one may speculate that Rotem's cars may be built with lower quality materials compared to the Japanese Kawasaki.

Then again, until we actually have the cars running can we actually know for sure whether they are lemons or not.

[mbta1051dan]

Hah now the most extravagant and probably expensive option will see if some german company can build these cars I don't mean the long-defunct MBB but maybe Siemens or Adtranz or someone...

Sorry to bring back the recurring "MBTA Electrics" topic, but what would be cool for the PVD line would be some of these...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:VIRM6.jpg

-Dan

[Kaback9]

I don't understand why MBTA did not try to tack on to NJT's Multilevel order, our Multilevels here in NJ are very nice and seem to be very reliable.

[realtype]

I don't understand why MBTA did not try to tack on to NJT's Multilevel order, our Multilevels here in NJ are very nice and seem to be very reliable.

$$$

Bombardier and Kawasaki bilevels are nice, particularly the NJT, MARC, and LIRR examples, but MBTA wanted to save some coin (to its own detriment).

[Diverging Route]

An update today from the Boston Globe.

[realtype]

An update today from the Boston Globe.

Excellent article. I definitely like the title: "T betting on untried firm to build fleet" Maybe the guys at the Globe should be in charge of MBTA procurement, since they obviously can see that Rotem is an inferior manufacturer.

Some interesting quotes:
"...quality of more established competitors like Kawasaki, the Japanese company that has built rail cars for the MBTA and many of the nation's largest transit agencies for two decades..."
"MBTA's staff rated Rotem slightly higher than Kawasaki in technical quality, despite Kawasaki's American track record, according to bidding documents obtained by the Globe.
"...T official John K. Leary...has worked as a consultant for {Rotem]"
"...the T has placed a $190 million bet on a company, Hyundai Rotem, that has yet to open an assembly plant on American soil..."
"Rotem has fallen months behind schedule on its other two American commuter coach orders, in Philadelphia and Southern California."

This is the exact same thing that happened at SEPTA--the procurement officials get deluded by the low price of the lesser brand and shun the quality and experience components of the RFP. Why couldn't the T just buy a variation of the MARC Kawasakis or NJT B'diers?

[RailBus63]

Excellent article. I definitely like the title: "T betting on untried firm to build fleet" Maybe the guys at the Globe should be in charge of MBTA procurement, since they obviously can see that Rotem is an inferior manufacturer.

Nowhere in the article does the Globe offer proof that Rotem is an inferior manufacturer. It is certainly fair to point out that they are new to building rail cars in the U.S. and that Kawasaki is well-established, but that does not automatically equate to subpar work. At one time, Kawasaki was new to the U.S. themselves.

[realtype]

Excellent article. I definitely like the title: "T betting on untried firm to build fleet" Maybe the guys at the Globe should be in charge of MBTA procurement, since they obviously can see that Rotem is an inferior manufacturer.

Nowhere in the article does the Globe offer proof that Rotem is an inferior manufacturer. It is certainly fair to point out that they are new to building rail cars in the U.S. and that Kawasaki is well-established, but that does not automatically equate to subpar work. At one time, Kawasaki was new to the U.S. themselves.

The undertone of the article was that Kawasaki was a better manufacturer and that the T is taking a big risk. I can understand the bean counters going for the cheaper product, but its the fairness in the selection process that is questionable. Kawasaki sued SEPTA because they had met the condtions of the RFP, but SEPTA chose Rotem anyways. But, instead of giving the contract to Kawa, they just wrote another RFP that only Rotem could qualify for. The only reason they didn't sue the MBTA (as stated in the article) is because they wanted to maintain a good relationship with the agency. RIght now the only customer that remains loyal to the K is New York (MTA and NYCT), and maybe the MTA (MD).

Kawasaki understands they can't compete on initial price, just like Toyota and Honda can't compete with Hyundai and Kia on initial price, but its the long run costs determined by build quality that really matter.
(Anyways what's done is done, so here ends my final rant of Rotem vs. Kawasaki. )

[Silverliner II]

Some interesting quotes:
"...the T has placed a $190 million bet on a company, Hyundai Rotem, that has yet to open an assembly plant on American soil..."
"Rotem has fallen months behind schedule on its other two American commuter coach orders, in Philadelphia and Southern California."

Rotem is opening an assembly plant in Philadelphia to handle the SEPTA and Metrolink orders; presumably the T order would be built there as well. In the case of SEPTA and Metrolink, only the car shells will be shipped in from overseas; all other work will be done at the Philly plant.

Yes, the SEPTA order is behind schedule, but it's not Rotem's fault. The steel supplier for the car shells went bankrupt or out of business...I can't remember which.

In any event...it doesn't mean the T's order will befall a similar fate...

[Kaback9]

So has anyone heard anything regarding this topic in a while?