• Newark, Delaware Extension - SEPTA Connection

  • Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.
Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua

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  by Pensyfan19
 
njt/mnrrbuff wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:13 am I wouldn't count on many people using these commuter trains as the cheapest way to travel all the way from NYP-DC given the fact that in the end, the trip may take several hours. We can't just factor in the train rides themselves. We have to factor in how much layover time we have between trains. It's possible that in the beginning, the level of service to NRK may not be very frequent and only during the week. Remember that presently Septa rail service to NRK is infrequent and only runs during the week too. Most Septa trains that head to Delaware end in Wilmington. Not all Septa trains continue beyond Marcus Hook. Even though not related to this forum, the SLE extension to Westerly is probably a pipe dream for now and the same thing goes with MBTA to Kingston, RI.
I know that this option is very unlikely for commuters to do, due to it taking several hours and the many transfers it has, but the option would still b out there. I would do it, but that would only be me. :wink:
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
I might do the TRE/PHL/NRK shuffle here and there. When I'm heading to Baltimore or DC from NWK, time is often money to me. Whenever I travel, I always take the train and I don't travel on a regular basis to Maryland or DC. If I did, I would also use buses too sometimes to save money. When this MARC NRK service begins and you take Septa to get to NRK, it's possible that you could be waiting hours for the next MARC train or even the next day that it runs. In New England, even though Ctrail started about two years ago running on the Springfield Line, many people who are coming from the NYC area still might take Amtrak on all of the trips. The MNR ride to New Haven takes a bit long and while many of the dwell times at New Haven are pretty reasonable between after getting off of MNR and connecting to Ctrail trains, sometimes Ctrail trains don't wait for late arriving MNR trains. That happened to me last year-I wanted to take MNR and Ctrail to Hartford, but unfortunately, my MNR train was very late into NHV and I had to wait a few hours until the next Ctrail train. Had I taken the Amtrak Vermonter, I would have gotten to Hartford a lot sooner but I didn't want to spend the extra money.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:58 am This should be a top priority for MARC with the stimulus being a main discussion on this site (and maybe even Baltimore to York, PA or Harrisburg service? :-D ). A flyover at Perryville would not be necessary but rather a second platform at the other side of the station would be needed since it would no longer be the terminus for the Penn line.
Another thing to think about too is that once MARC goes to Newark, DE, this would fill the commuter gap between Perryville and Newark, essentially allowing for commuter service from New York to DC! NJT from Penn to Trenton, SEPTA from Trenton to Philly, SEPTA from Philly to Newark, MARC from Newark to DC. All for a lower price than Amtrak (even though this idea would take much longer.) That's what I plan on doing once this extension opens. Not to mention once Penn Station access, Shore Line East extension to Westerly and MBTA extension to Kingston and eventually Westerly is completed, you could also take commuter rail from DC to Boston! :P
And thus why I'd think Wilmington is a better place to turn MARC trains. You have a better (more frequent) connection to SEPTA, plus it's a station with cover and some amenities.

A fly-over would be if connecting-to-SEPTA service is similarly limited to Newark; less trains than what's going to Perryville. Granted, putting high platforms up between Baltimore and Wilmington would be worth it (as well as making all stations have at least two platforms).

That said, continuing this "Extend all the commuter rail to a cheap-but-slow Amtrak replacement" theme is all nice and good for an enthusiast but for regular folk, they're not going to put up with having to transfer numerous times and deal with mixed rush-hour traffic. For instance, DC to Boston by commuter rail, guessing at some fares and marking them with stars * to indicate extensions:
  1. MARC Penn Line DC to Wilmington, $15 *
  2. SEPTA Wilmington to Trenton (transfer at 30th Street or Jefferson), $9.25
  3. NJ Transit Trenton to NY Penn, $16.75
  4. NYC MTA subway (A-C-E or 1-2-3 to 42nd street, then 7 or S to Grand Central), $2.75
  5. MTA Metro North Grand Central to New Haven, $23.50 (peak)
  6. Shore Line East to Westerly, $12 *
  7. MBTA Commuter Rail to Boston, Providence line, $15 *
Total is just short of $95, and I bet you'll get there in over 12 hours. Currently, Amtrak is $104 on a Saver fare, and you get there in 8.5 hours... and at least you can EAT SOMETHING on the single train you are on.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
Wilmington to Newark, Del might be about 10 minutes on the schedule but mileagewise, it's 17 miles. It wouldn't be super bad extending MARC to Wilmington, given that the yard a little to the east. However, the MARC trains probably wouldn't be able to layover between runs in Wilmington because there are only three tracks and Septa gets next dibs over Amtrak there. Newark, Del is a different story. I wonder if there will be a yard built for both Septa and MARC in Newark, Del?

People who don't want to take Amtrak from NYC or any other city along the NEC to DC who don't want to drive will take the bus. There are so many bus companies that run between NYC and NWK and DC as well as Philadelphia to DC or vice versa. They can get to DC faster on a one seat bus ride over taking multiple commuter trains and having to risk missing their connection which could lead them to waiting hours for the next train. Business executives will continue to take Amtrak. There are several of them who live in and around Wilmington to commute to Baltimore or DC daily.
Even people who do a one seat ride on these MARC trains heading to and from NRK-don't be surprised if more of them are commuting to jobs in Baltimore since it's closer than DC. Even from Baltimore to Newark, Del is a long ride-60 miles.
  by nomis
 
Lets hope that when MARC's portion is complete, that Delaware puts up some more subsidy for additional Septa trains to traverse further south than Marcus Hook to a station where service would meet up. I was hoping to find some statistics for intra-Delaware travel, but couldn't find them. Current ridership levels for SEPTA Service is:

Station: Boardings / Alightings // Parking Spots
Claymont 534 / 608 (504 total spots)
Wilmington 878 / 632 (1,098 total spots)
Churchmans Crossing 321 / 330 (250+ of 376 spots used)
Newark 318 / 238 (249 of 285 spots used)

Sources:
Fiscal Year 2020 Annual Service Plan
Delaware State Rail Plan 2011
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
[quote=nomis post_id=1539919 time=1587169461 user_id=16349]
Lets hope that when MARC's portion is complete, that Delaware puts up some more subsidy for additional Septa trains to traverse further south than Marcus Hook to a station where service would meet up. I was hoping to find some statistics for intra-Delaware travel, but couldn't find them. Current ridership levels for SEPTA Service is:

[b][u]Station: Boardings / Alightings // Parking Spots[/u][/b]
Claymont 534 / 608 [i](504 total spots)[/i]
Wilmington 878 / 632 [i](1,098 total spots)[/i]
Churchmans Crossing 321 / 330 [i](250+ of 376 spots used)[/i]
Newark 318 / 238 [i](249 of 285 spots used)[/i]

Sources:
[url=http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports ... te.WEB.pdf] Fiscal Year 2020 Annual Service Plan[/url]
[url=https://deldot.gov/Publications/reports ... _final.pdf]Delaware State Rail Plan 2011[/url]
[/quote]

Absolutely. Septa service to NRK can be improved. In fact, the weekend service to Wilmington, DE isn't good enough. It's every other hour. It should be at least every hour on weekends on the Wilmington/Newark Line. Churchman's Crossings should have platforms on both sides of the main. For every time a train has to cross over to stop there heading south, it probably interferes with other movements and I don't think Amtrak likes that. A station in Newport, Delaware would be a good idea and I know that there was an article about a proposal of that happening. If more train service runs to Newark, it might be a good idea to have more express trains even some ones that run during the middle of the day and on weekends.
  by Rockingham Racer
 
Poor college kids will use commuter trains. I know several who used to do the NJT/Septa combo to get from New York to Philly. Why? Poor college kids always look for a less expensive alternative. Now, whether a Univ of Rhode Island student would try Kingston to Philly is another question.
  by STrRedWolf
 
Rockingham Racer wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:42 am Poor college kids will use commuter trains. I know several who used to do the NJT/Septa combo to get from New York to Philly. Why? Poor college kids always look for a less expensive alternative. Now, whether a Univ of Rhode Island student would try Kingston to Philly is another question.
I take it they have student monthly passes. From Delaware, it'll be $345 (vs $405 regular).

How much of a discount are SEPTA/NJT train passes?
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
You beat me to the plate Rockingham Racer. UDel students will benefit from the MARC service a lot and it will certainly save them a lot of money over taking Amtrak. I have friends who attended college in Philadelphia and they would typically do the NJT/Septa combo from NWK. I don't think there will be many U of Rhode Island students who will do Septa/NJT/MNR/SLE/MBTA. That would take way too long plus between PHL and KIN, there are several states. Remember that when switching from NJT to Metro North, you have to get over from NY Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal. The great thing about traveling from NRK-DC on MARC when the service is available-you won't have to change and the trains won't be stopping every mile all the time just like many commuter railroads.
  by NIMBYkiller
 
As a UDel alum, I can tell you that absolutely nobody is doing the 2 Septas and an NJT to get back to NY or Northern NJ. Also, as the person who runs a student transportation service for kids to go home on weekends and holidays, it's usually mommy and daddy's money being used to buy the tickets. MARC service will definitely be a benefit for UD students going to Baltimore/DC over Amtrak, but don't think that college kids are about to embark upon 3 or 4 train odysseys. Even if they were willing to do it, most of them aren't even smart enough to pull it off without * it up.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
NIMBYkiller, I am with you on that. Traveling from NRK to NWK or NYP by taking two Septas and NJT will take way too long. If one connection is missed, it's possible that at least an hour of additional trip time could be added. I wouldn't do that myself, especially if I was in a rush. When I am traveling to PHL from NWK, I will usually take NJT to Septa. If I'm heading south of PHL by train, then it's Amtrak. Unlike the future MARC trains that will end in NRK, many Septa trains on the WIL/NRK and Trenton Lines run local and the station stops are often less than a mile from each other. I had friends who went attended UDel and because of the very low frequency of Amtrak trains stopping at NRK, they often took it out of WIL. That was between 03 and 07. Today, the frequency of Amtrak trains stopping in NRK has improved somewhat. Having those MARC trains will be great for those college students who might have internships to attend to in Baltimore and DC. Not just students but people living within easy reach of the MARC Station could hopefully look forward to a day of visiting some museums in Baltimore and DC. It would be great to be able to attend an Orioles game at Camden Yards too. I don't know how late these MARC trains back to NRK will run so it's possible that you still may need to use Amtrak. If you live in Newark, Del and want to go to Washington during a time when no southbound Amtrak trains stop there, you either have to backtrack to Wilmington or at that point, you probably might as well just drive all the way to DC or at least to BAL and grab MARC from there. It looks like the brand new Newark, Del Station will have a center island high level platform between Track A and 1. Hopefully a high level platform will go up on the southbound side. It would be nice to have some more Amtrak trains stop in NRK.
  by MACTRAXX
 
njt/mnrrbuff wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:06 pm Wilmington to Newark, Del might be about 10 minutes on the schedule but mileagewise, it's 17 miles. It wouldn't be super bad extending MARC to Wilmington, given that the yard a little to the east. However, the MARC trains probably wouldn't be able to layover between runs in Wilmington because there are only three tracks and Septa gets next dibs over Amtrak there. Newark, Del is a different story. I wonder if there will be a yard built for both Septa and MARC in Newark, Del?

People who don't want to take Amtrak from NYC or any other city along the NEC to DC who don't want to drive will take the bus. There are so many bus companies that run between NYC and NWK and DC as well as Philadelphia to DC or vice versa. They can get to DC faster on a one seat bus ride over taking multiple commuter trains and having to risk missing their connection which could lead them to waiting hours for the next train. Business executives will continue to take Amtrak. There are several of them who live in and around Wilmington to commute to Baltimore or DC daily.
Even people who do a one seat ride on these MARC trains heading to and from NRK-don't be surprised if more of them are commuting to jobs in Baltimore since it's closer than DC. Even from Baltimore to Newark, Del is a long ride-60 miles.
Buff: Wilmington to Newark, DE is 12 miles. Wilmington is 26 miles from
Philadelphia Suburban Station (Mile 0 PHS-WAS) and Newark is near Milepost 38.

The "gap" between Newark, DE and Perryville, MD is 21 miles.
The mileage between Newark, DE and Baltimore is 57 miles.

From the Amtrak "Chesapeake" schedule (posted earlier in this topic) PHL-WAS
The miles from PHS are: Philadelphia 30th Street Upper is exactly one mile.
Chester, PA 13
Wilmington 26
Newark, DE 38
Elkton, MD 44
Perryville 59
Aberdeen 65
Edgewood 75
Baltimore 95
Edmonson Ave 98 (in West Baltimore)
BWI Airport 106
Odenton 113
Bowie 120
New Carrollton, MD 127
Washington, DC 136
To refine these mileages refer to an Amtrak (or predecessor) ETT.

NK (Jared): I agree with you about the thought about University of Delaware
students traveling to North Jersey and New York - which is a three seat ride
by way of SEPTA and NJT northward. Any new MARC service to BAL and WAS
would be a preferred one seat ride southward which is a huge difference...

NRK-Philadelphia-TRE north all depends on how convenient that the transfers
between trains are in Center City Philadelphia and at Trenton between SEPTA
and NJT. The better place to transfer between Trenton Line and Wilmington-
Newark Line trains is at Jefferson Station (Market East) because by doing so
you get better seat choices and be able to get settled in before the Suburban
Station and 30th Street Station stops - especially going towards Trenton.
  by Pensyfan19
 
I am aware that the commuters will most likely take the quicker option when it comes to commuting by rail, even though only I would do that kind of thing to say that I did it. :P

Also note that commuter rail is used by millions of employees worldwide in order to travel to work on a daily basis, not just those who are poor. I am aware that one could also take Amtrak between further distances along the corridor, such as New Haven to Philly, but I just mentioned my option of all commuter rail from NY to DC as an option. It's not going to be likely that anyone will actually consider it, but it exists if people want to use the cheaper option, even if it means taking hours longer.
  by MACTRAXX
 
NK/J: (Cont.)The Trenton transfer depends on the scheduled transfer time, obtaining
a ticket for the connecting service if necessary and if the connecting train is either
across the platform or if it requires an "up and over" between the two main platforms.

RW: I am going to mention regular SEPTA Monthly pass fares since they cover both
segments of the ride.
Anywhere Pass: $204 Valid at any time with no restrictions or extra zone charges.

Another option is to purchase the thirty dollars cheaper Zone 3 Monthly Pass for $174.
The difference would be that it would require an extra charge of $3.75 prepaid or $4
on board if this pass is used during peak hours on weekdays in this manner:
Going to Center City Philadelphia and arriving in CCP before 9:30 AM
Leaving Center City Philadelphia (to either Trenton or Wilmington) between 4 and 7 PM

Using a Zone 3 pass depends on one's commuting schedule.
If one of the legs of the trip is going to be on a peak hour weekday train it is better
to use the Anywhere Pass for these rides.

NJT is considerably more expensive. The regular Monthly Pass fare from TRE-NYP is
$480; Trenton to Newark is $353. What makes these fares interesting is that they
are valid and will cover the fare on all other lines in the system with the exception of
Port Jervis Line past Tuxedo (Metro-North) even though $480 is the same price as the
monthly fare between Port Jervis and Penn Station.

There may be discounts for college students by contacting NJT directly.
...MACTRAXX
  by ThirdRail7
 
Citing a budget shortfall due to the coronavirus, the Governor of Maryland vetoed the MARC expansion bill. This threatens MARC service to NRK as well as MARC run through service to Virginia.


https://ggwash.org/view/77559/gov-hogan ... o-override

On May 7, Hogan vetoed 37 of those bills, including HB (House Bill) 1236, or the MARC Train Expansion of Service Act, an ambitious proposal to expand the scope of Maryland’s MARC (Maryland Area Rail Commuter) commuter rail system.

A pair of amendments, added shortly before the bill became the final bill to pass the State Senate on the final day of session, called for the MTA to study running Penn Line trains between their current northern terminus at Perryville in Cecil County and Newark, Delaware, where they’d be able to interchange with Philadelphia’s SEPTA Commuter Rail Service, and to explore building a rail connection between the two MARC lines which run through Baltimore City, the Penn and Camden Lines.
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