Does anyone know what they intend to do in less then 2 years as amtrak will no longer be maintaining AEM7s/HHP8's
Railroad Forums
Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua
djlong wrote:I looked at some presentations for the future of MARCLink?
djlong wrote:t boggles the mind that they're going to replace the electrics on the Penn Line with diesels.How does the pollution of a Tier 4 loco compare to our current electric grid? Sure, electrics don't have exhaust, but they get their power from coal plants that do (particularly in Maryland's grid)
Diesels cost more to buy, more to run, perform worse and pollute more. They'll be clogging up the NEC with their reduced start/stop performance...
Arlington wrote:Electrics accelerate quicker with the power..and seems to run faster....SEPTA/NJT finds that important ...though NJT has some diesel rail lines...but they was smart and got dual-mode locomotives which i thinks work best for them. Easily switch when the overhead wire stops/starts... Also for SEPTA/NJT they cannot have diesels operate in their tunnels in to the stations due to the smoke / and other issues that's a no-no..LOL..My understanding is also that MARC cannot afford the bill from AMTRAK for the power ?djlong wrote:I looked at some presentations for the future of MARCLink?djlong wrote:t boggles the mind that they're going to replace the electrics on the Penn Line with diesels.How does the pollution of a Tier 4 loco compare to our current electric grid? Sure, electrics don't have exhaust, but they get their power from coal plants that do (particularly in Maryland's grid)
Diesels cost more to buy, more to run, perform worse and pollute more. They'll be clogging up the NEC with their reduced start/stop performance...
If Penn Locos do start through running to Virginia/VRE territory--maybe in 10 years when we get a new Long Bridge-- Penn diesels will be a must.
Fleet commonality with the Brunswick and Camden lines seems like a money saver.
I know it is a bit circular, but the MBTA looks at MARC and MARC looks at the MBTA and both see operating diesels under the wire as the best choice for their system. Electrics seem "must haves" only if you've got a huge electric system (NJT, SEPTA), and often tip into EMUs, not loco-hauled.
djlong wrote:The presentation I saw was: http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/f ... -09-13.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;The MBTA also isn't a good comparison because not all of the commuter rail stations on their portion of the NEC are wired yet. There are unwired tracks at 4-track Attleboro station and the new Rhode Island stations at T.F. Green and Wickford Junction that would have to be filled in, and substation upgrades to be made (all such facilities installed with the Shoreline electrification leave extra equipment berths for upgrading the draw). Not to mention their big Providence Line layover yard in Pawtucket, some of the layup tracks at Widett Circle in Boston, and the wye track from the NEC to Widett Circle would also have to be strung up. Not an immense amount of work, and they would get a considerable amount of help there from state of RI. But they have additional prep tasks before they can do electric ops (even if they were able to contract out electric loco maintenance to Amtrak at their Southampton Yard facility for lack of any properly equipped shop of their own). They would not be able to do anything right now today with some spare Amtrak motors even if they were available for a song. MARC is completely filled out in all the requisite vehicle access to platforms and facility access. They're willingly passing up capacity they already have.
Where does Maryland get it's electricity from? Well, in 1990, it was 70% coal and now (as of 2013 anyway) it's 43% (nuclear went from 7% to 35%) Link: https://data.maryland.gov/Energy-and-En ... /9x8y-nux4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MARC should NOT be looking at the MBTA. At least not until the MBTA gets it's act together. If anything, they should be looking at the MBTA as a cautionary tale. One lesson could be "order the same electrics that Amtrak ordered - do NOT go the custom route).
I was reading the experiences of the UK in how much diesels cost versus electric and it was something like 30-40% cheaper to maintain electrics in addition to all the performance benefits. This included reduced wear and tear on the rails due to the lighter electric motors instead of those heavy diesels.
As far as operating into VRE territory, there have been a lot of proposals for an up-to $1B plan to electrify (with extra tracks because of freight congestion) down to Richmond. Does anyone remember what it cost to electrify New Haven to Boston on the NEC?
djlong wrote:The presentation I saw was: http://mta.maryland.gov/sites/default/f ... -09-13.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;thanks for the link
djlong wrote:[Maryland's grid is] it's 43% [coal] Link: https://data.maryland.gov/Energy-and-En ... /9x8y-nux4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;43% coal is probably dirtier than Tier IV diesel. (Calvert Cliffs 1 was shutdown for 3/4ths of 1990 so that isn't a good base year for % Nuke. Thanks in part to NSA's constant need for electricity, IIRC Maryland has one of the highest % nuke numbers in the US, but it still might be dirtier than Tier IV)
djlong wrote:MARC should NOT be looking at the MBTA. At least not until the MBTA gets it's act together. If anything, they should be looking at the MBTA as a cautionary tale. One lesson could be "order the same electrics that Amtrak ordered - do NOT go the custom route).Yes, custom has proven bad for MBTA, but off-the-shelf Tier IV diesels are probably a safer bet.
djlong wrote:I was reading the experiences of the UK in how much diesels cost versus electric and it was something like 30-40% cheaper to maintain electrics in addition to all the performance benefits. This included reduced wear and tear on the rails due to the lighter electric motors instead of those heavy diesels.UK has a very different energy economy. Perhaps different enough to make comparisons fully comparable. I get that electrics can be lighter and simpler, but I seem to recall that buying electricity from Amtrak was not a particularly cheap way of buying energy.
Arlington wrote:Problem is: there is no market for 25hz electricity.Still doesn't explain why they guard their wires so jealously on the Shoreline where the 60 Hz power comes straight off the grid.
It's either Amtrak or nothing (diesels), and Amtrak would be right in fully-loading each kWh with a good chunk of its physical plants replacement costs. They can't afford to sell cheap. Heck, shooing MARC off the wire may free up power for the Acela II's needs.
If Amtrak prioritized its own needs, Acela II would get first dibs on any capacity, and MARC would be told that it's rates would have to include the costs of additional frequency converters, etc. (sparing its in house routes and asking MARC to fully pay for any capacity increases above Amtrak's needs, which may have gotten more expensive than diesel.