Protest against photban on June 6th!

[Richard Glueck]

You make a point, C-Liner. I should have said "Head up his colon".
I just hate neo-Nazis, so forgive my departing from graceful speech.

[GP38]

Pretty pathetic - I thought I joined an intelligent "railroad forum." I have been taking RR photos all over the U.S. for years and have yet to have my cameras and equipment confiscated - and I have had contact with law enforcement personnel in pursuing my hobby of 60 years. Perhaps a little attitude adjustment will be of benefit. How many of you have been detained for taking photos on public property (not trespassing)?

geez, this thread stated to degenerate! Anyway, C-Liner, I would find it unfortunate that you would want to stop posting just because of one thread that you find disagreementr with. I hope you would reconsider, as there is a lot of fun, discussion, and learning that can be had from the great people that post here.

Anyway, actually, yes quite a few people have been detained, threatened, and harrassed from taking photos on public property (public streets, grade crossings, etc). There are quite a few stories about this in New Jersey, especially on HBLR and NJT. It's one thing on stations, and transit property (even if not tresspassing), but it is quite another when this is happening to people in totally public areas, like at grade crossings and public streets. New Jersey Transit claims people aren't allowed to take photos AT ALL of their trains, no matter where they are standing when they do it. And the crazy stories are especially bad coming from HBLR there too. So yes, this is becoming a major issue in many areas, even if you have not experienced it in your area yet.

[kro52]

My apologies to Pappy, I realize that this site should be dedicated to the hobby of railroading. When certain indivduals take it upon themselves to use it as a political forum and with that, place a personal attack on me, I cannot help but to respond in turn. This person chose to use the term Neo Nazi in his idiotic statement. His ignorance caues him to spew his poison thinking by using these terms he will silence the truth....well guess what, he is mistaken.
GP38: here is a link about today's protest. You will see that all went peaceful. http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fet ... nified_p=1

KRO52

[DutchRailnut]

We attacked you, on you giving us crap that we should forgo the constitution because of a terorist attack. The constitution is first, and should always be most impotant, not cowarding under a rock.

[kro52]

Dutch,
Tell me where I said to forgo the Constitution?

[DutchRailnut]

>>>Greetings All,
>>>>>I take offense to the "Voting" statement. First off let's not forget >>>>>who attacked who first! The loss of some personal freedoms are a >>>>>small price to pay for the privilege of being an American in these >>>>>>times.

loss of personal freedom is guaranteed in constitution, having politicians change that without a vote, is unconstitutional., the fact with you agreeing to loss of freedom is at least I would say alarming.

[Paul]

KRO52:
I value your opinion. I am thankful that I live in a society (for the time being) that I can post dissenting opinions. The right to dissent is perhaps the most important one there is. In Germany during the rise of National Socialism (Nazis) very few people dared to speak out against the wrongs (or perception of wrongs) committed by the German government. The result was literally that the population blindly and unquestionably followed the Furor into cataclysm, the likes of which the world has never seen. One can make the comparison of post 9-11 America to Nazi Germany of 1936. People have lost jobs for expressing dissenting opinions. We have unquestioningly curtailed our civil rights by the enactment of the Patriot Act. American citizens are being detained without due process in this country. I was stopped in my car by the local police and the cop asked me why did I have a camera in my car and where was I going, etc.
Blame America first? Quite frankly our (as a nation) behavior in the middle east in the twentieth century has been less than exemplary. Most of the post WW2 policy concerning the middle east was based on an erroneous CIA report on Soviet oil reserves from the 1950s. Check on the history of the Trans Iranian RR during WW2. Check on the Saudi oil boycott by US and British governments in the 1950s.
Our hands are not clean in anyway. What is the solution? There isn't any. Other than a blood bath that will make WW1 & 2 look like a stroll though Central Park on a spring day. It's sad and bleak but its the reality.

[kro52]

Dutch: Please learn how to read before accusing someone of agreeing with forgoing the Constitution. The loss of personal freedoms under the Patriot act was voted on and passed by Congress. I personally do not agree with many articles in it, but I understand the need for it at this time.
http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html



Paul: I too am glad to post dissenting views. YourPost 9-11 comparison to Nazi Germany, maybe that's the way it is in California, but that doesn't seem to happen where I live. People loosing jobs for dissenting opinions? Please give me some examples. I am sure that type of news would make the Media drool. Having never heard such stories I am sure it is untrue. I remember back in the late 60's being pulled over for no reason but to search the car for "drugs". I didn't care for that, but today I know no one that has been pulled over for those searches you mention. California must be one tough place to live.
On middle eastern history, I agree, our hands and those others who exploit the area have behaved badly, but at least we pay for what we take not by colonization. And you are right, there is no answer to this.

KRO52

[krispy]

There was articles in the Times, Daily News, Post and Newsday all with pics of railfans defying the ban. A couple of them credited online forums and newsgroups for the reaction to the ban. Anyone here get in those pics?

[JoeLIRR]

Most the pics the terrorist need are already out there, some where or another. this ban is not only going to effect railfans, but the average person using publis transportation and taking memory of the "kodac moment" then i guss in these times un fortunatly happeded on public transportation or within its infistructure.

by following up with a bann, America has unconditionally surrendered to the terrorist population.

WWII was a diffrent time and diffrent concern, tho i have not herd about a photo ban during the war.

[jayrmli]

I have yet to find anywhere in the Constitution any mention of the right to take pictures of trains. Just because you're an American doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want. There are laws on the books, and trespassing is one of them.

While I will agree that the photo ban may not prevent a terrorist attack, and is probably overkill, the railroads do have a right to tell you what you can and can't do on their trains and their property.

Let me ask you this: If you came home one day and found a stranger walking on your property with a camera, taking pictures of various personal effects you may have, maybe even mapping out your property, etc, would you ask him to leave? Would you call the police? Or would you rationalize that he is an American and has a right and a freedom to be doing whatever it is he might be doing?

The fact of the matter is railroads are not owned by you, they are owned by the railroads, and they can dictate what you can and can't do on their property, just as you can dictate what others do or don't do on your property. They may not have enforced it back in the "good old days," but now they have more of a reason.

While I try to refrain from posting political messages on this site, as it is a railroad site, not a political forum, I must say I take offense to some of the posts made by a select few on this thread. Calling Conservatives neo-Nazis is uncalled for. I can understand Pappy getting very upset with those types of comments. He is a WWII veteran, and we should all thank people such as Pappy who stood up and fought against Hitler's Nazis, Tojo's Japan, communism, facism and now terrorism. Someone posted earlier that the upcoming election is very important. I agree, but not over a photo ban. Think carefully before you pull the lever. Three thousand people who went to work in the World Trade Center had their civil rights violated on September 11th. Remember that and put that in perspective before you complain too hard about a photo ban.

Jay

[DutchRailnut]

Jay your shooting of the hip again, we are protesting the ban of picture taking from public property not of railroad property. on public property there is no tresspassing.

[bluebelly]

I agree that that banning RR photography is wrong, however people must understand that the rights granted in the Constitution are not absolute they have limits. Yes the constitution grants freedom of expression, but the part everyone forgets is only if it does not infringe upon the rights of others. So I can't walk up to someone pull out a knife , carve my name into thier forehead and claim its my fist amendment right to express myself. So while I personaly do not support the photoban, the fact is your right to take pictures is superceded by the right of the commuters not to get blown up on the way to work. I know I will get flamed for this, but what can I say.
By the way anyone who compares post 9/11 America to Nazi Germany has no idea what they are talking about, I suggest renting Schindlers List.
Do you think the Nazi's would have allowed that protest the other day?

[Paul]

No person has a "right" to tresspass to take pictures. Infact, as a railroad employee, I am not authorized to be on company property except when performing service to the company. Taking photographs from crossings, side walks, etc constitutes a whole differant matter. As far as the comparison of post 9/11 America to 1930's Germany? From the rise of Hitler to Schindler's time, there was many years in between. Hitler rose to power in 1933. It took him until 1936 to consolidate his power and subdue his oposition, including many of his own "brown shirts". While we are not yet at the stage of the knocks on the door at three in the morning, there have been stong indications we could be heading this way. We must remain diligent to protect the Constitution from the likes of current administration. Go out and take the photographs of trains, just like we did on 9-10. Be wary of those who are afraid of our cameras.

THIS WEAPON KILLS FACISTS!

[jayrmli]

I am both a railroad employee and a railfan. Yes, I have taken (and will continue to take) pictures trackside. From my observations both trackside and from the locomotive cab, I would say 95% of all railfan pictures taken are on railroad property. Please keep in mind that station platforms and in some cases bridges are considered railroad property. In this instance, the railroad has a say in what you can and can't do on their property.

This is nothing new. Before 9/11, railroads had already become very concerned regarding trespassing on their property, due to skyrocketing liability insurance premiums, and the lawsuits they have had to fight over trespassers being hurt or killed. Now, there is a whole new dimension with the advent of terrorism. As bluebelly said above, the protection of commuters on a train is paramount, and most certainly supercedes the right of someone to take photos of a train.

I posted a few months back when the complaints started to mount about MTA Police "harassing" railfans who were taking pictures of trains. Maybe they were overzealous at times. Maybe not. I've seen "knowledgeable" railfans do some things trackside that make you scratch your head. I also said the best thing to to would be to just leave, and be polite. All you need is a few people who want to profess their constitutional rights, print out copies of the MTA policy stating it's OK to take photographs, etc. The next step is to obviously change the law to say its not OK. Seems more than just a coincidence that after railfans said to carry a printout of the MTA policy with them, that now they want to change the policy, heh?

I have said it before, we are at war with an enemy that knows no bounds, and their only goal is to kill as many Americans we can and disrupt and attempt to destroy our way of life (which includes taking pictures of trains). They know no bounds, and their main weaponry has been public transportation. They have used car bombs, bombed busses, crashed airplanes into buildings and blown up trains. Is it no wonder the railroads are a little jittery? This enemy has also taken advantage of our constitutional freedoms and our country's generosity, taking advantage of the openess and freedoms we have so enjoyed. To not curtail or ammend (note - not abolish) some of our freedoms and bury our heads in the sand hoping nothing will happen again is dangerous and foolish. It was tried in the 1990's (first WTC bombing, US Embassy bombings in Africa, USS Cole, etc.), and look what happened.

Jay