New Signals

[Head-end View]

A while back in the old forum, someone said that there was a new color-light signal that looked like a traffic light somewhere in the Jamaica complex. I've never been able to spot it, Can anyone tell us exactly where it is?

Also, someone had rumored that MTA/LIRR was considering changing to a simpler stop vs. proceed type signal at interlockings, presumably similar to Metro-North's system. Has anyone heard anything more about this?

I do note that traditional Pennsy type position-light signals are still being put in new installations such as Freeport. It'll be interesting to see what they do at Queens interlocking.

[tp49]

On the old board someone either posted a link to or images of the Pennsy signals and what they meant. Would it be possible for someone to either repost the link or the images so I have an idea what I'm looking at when I do some riding back on the Island next week?

[Jersey_Mike]

The colour light signal is a 3-stack dwarf at HALL interlocking. I think it didn't go over real well as the experiment has not been duplicated since.

Honestly, what is the cost savings of 3-light dwarf stacks compared to a 4-light PRR Pot, especially when you need to re-train everyone. Ever since the LIAR eliminated waysides they probably have a whole crapload of PRR PL kit in storage so there's another reason not to convert. Based on their actions at Freeport I suspect that QUEENSwill also remain amber PL.

I real worry is for the pneumatic switches.

[NIMBYkiller]

I think that was either Pchop or JJ Earl that posted that. It was really interesting and had gave you great ways to remember what each signal meant.

[bluebelly]

Yea That was me on both counts Here is the link:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/pc/pc-poslitsig.html
Most but not all the signals are the same. The "traffic light" looking signal is on the west end of the West layup in hall. It displays the same indications as a low home.

[krispy]

It's not an "experiment gone wrong", but was designed intentionally that way to draw attention to it. Typically when approaching the Meathouse signal bridge, you're looking up at the lollipops, but the signal off of the West Layup was a dwarf on the ground, which is very counter-intuitive. Especially if you're a crew member making a reverse move and haven't been to Jamaica in a long time, it was a trap and that was why they went with a dwarf color signal there.

Lead Interlocking east of the bridge sported color pedestal sigs back in the '80s, and an old-timer told me why they were there and I forgot. Anyone?

Jersey Mike - nice pic of an old Model 15 interlocking machine. What tower was that? Training the maintainers on different sigs is no problem, as they all do time in Zone A and the Atlantic, so they get to play with color sigs there. The existing system works well, only disadvantages being more bulbs to change and occasionally visibility probs if backlit by a setting/rising sun, like on the Van Wyck at Jay. I personally can tell the indication farther away on a LI/PRR sig than a color light or color position light found on the Northeast Corridor.

Pneumatic switches are great but are rapidly getting phased out on the Island. They're a bear to maintain so the trend is to dual control electric, especially if the interlocking is getting remoted...

[Head-end View]

Mike: I saw your photo on the NJT thread. Interesting; maybe the reason I never noticed it was 'cause I'm looking up at the signal bridge, like Krispy said. I'll look again next time.

[freightguy]

I like the position light signals a lot better than the color light signals. I went railfanning with a friend in Jersey on the Lehigh line. We looked down the tracks and I could barely make out the approach on the color lights. Watching from about the same distance in Floral Park towards Queens interlocking you can make out the indications no problem. The light pollution from stations on the LIRR is the main problem with signals of course at night. I believe most of the 292 violations are racked up in the Penn Station area where the color lights reign supreme.

I gave my friend an original Pennsy low home style signal from the 1930's. It was torn out by Amtrak and left in Yard "A" about 4 years ago. I'd say it weighs about 70 pounds(all metal and original glass bulbs). He built a control panel for it for each indication a low home can display and is supposed to put it and the end of his driveway on display. A LIRR signal guy said that the wiring and circuits were the originals from the 1930's.

GREG

[dukeoq]

Krispey mentions a color signal at LEAD.
When I worked road freight in the 1960s, all automatics between VALLEY and LEAD were color signals on large black background.
This was the only branch at the time that had such signals.
(not counting the underground lines)
Can anyone out there explain why these were in place for so long?
JJ Earl

[bingdude]

Maybe someone here can set me straight on a rumor I heard.

Someone told me that the reason position lights were/are being phased out is because an insurance policy writer rode a train once and couldn't see the aspects of a PRR signal and said "You know, If that was a red or green light, you'd see it better."

Since then, all of the B&O and N&W position lights were yanked. And Amtrak is retrofitting the old PRR lights so the STOP SIGNAL aspect has red lenses in it and the CLEAR has green lenses.

Contrary to that, something I have noticed...at HALL and HALL EAST there are traffic signals visible on the street adjacent to the tracks. At a distance you can see them and with parallax an engineer could confuse them with track signals if they were using colors.

[jayrmli]

The main reason that most railroads have converted to color light signals is simply cost. The cost to make a Pennsy-style position light signal is much higher than a now-standard color searchlight signal. Since more railroads are using standard-type signals as opposed to position lights, the cost difference will become even greater.

If an engineer (who is qualified on physical characteristics) mixes up a traffic signal on the street with a color light signal on his track, he shouldn't be an engineer.

Jay

[scopelliti]

The way I heard it, the Pennsy position lights were always considered safer than color lights for several reasons:
1) They indicate properly even to someone who is color blind
2) The yellow light penetrates fog better than other colors, so it can be seen at a further distance
3) Failure of one bulb does not disable the indication

[dukeoq]

Not altogether true, Jay.
Those red and green signals in a congested, non rail, area can be confusing.
When I hired on in '57, the east end, Yard 'A' hump and the 8th street Hill both had semephore signals for the conductor to control the movement of the drag.
Night signals were in color and backed up by a fireworks display of red and green lights from the overhead subwaytrains and thier signals as they passed through the area.
It was very confusing for an engineer to distingush which color he was supposed to respect.
They were eventually changed to position light signals.
JJ Earl

[dukeoq]

scopelliti, that's the way I always heard it.
JJ Earl

[Jersey_Mike]

Frankly, with the advent of never-die LED arrays the maintainence cost of PL signals is not that much higher than traffic lights. However, the brilliance of the PRR amber cannot be replicated by an LED. I am sure you all are familliar with the flashing "arrow" trainers used at construction sites. Well, the incandesant ones are a spot on match for PRR Amber. I saw one tonight downtown here in Baltimore. They burn your retnas out they are so brilliant. However many DoT's have converted to yellow LED. It looks like total crap. The light is dim and often blends into the Na vabour backlight.

Anyway, the real advantage to either PRR incandesant amber or colour-positon is that they really cut through the cab weather than the traffic lights do. They also help define the limits of an interlocking in --- stop mode. The PRR system is good cause it gets more visable in adverse conditions. the B&O system is good because the colour represents the # of clear blocks ahead of you and the orbitals give you your speed info.

In any of the systems the use of red is limited. In the trafficlight system the engineers are always seeing red...it can be desensitizing. When you give engineers G/R/R as clear and R/R/R as STOP no wonder there are so many 292 violations.