Definitely agree that electrification of the Central Branch is a good idea as a second way to get people to and from eastern points on the island if anything happened on the Babylon Branch or the Mainline. Was curious how many Montauk trains use the Central Branch each day?
Railroad Forums
LIRR to Electrify Cent. Branch
- Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Moderator: Liquidcamphor
It varies. On weekdays, at least three trains use the Central Branch since they actually make stops on the Main Line, one heading westbound and two heading eastbound. Out of those three, there is a pair that's good if you work a 9 to 5 job in Mineola. As for the express trains that don't make any stops between Jamaica and Babylon, in general, those trains use the W. Hempstead to the Babylon. There are times when Montauk bound trains that aren't scheduled to make any stops between Jamaica and Babylon will use the Main Line, especially if there are trains scheduled directly in front of them to depart Jamaica heading for the W. Hempstead, Far Rockaway, Long Beach, and Babylon Lines.
Everyone - More thought and insight on mentions in this topic:
1-SS: Yes-Third rail ties have been regularly installed by the LIRR on diesel routes that have the
potential of being electrified in the future. One example I remember is the Ronkonkoma Branch
got third rail ties along with a major mid 1970s track work program in which welded rail was laid
on the branch as far east as Ronkonkoma.
2-4/2: Republic Station back before it was closed in 1986 was developing a significant "reverse"
commuter ridership from BOTH directions on the Ronkonkoma Branch because of its location on
the Route 110 Corridor. Planners believed that Republic was too close to Farmingdale and that
riders would take advantage of connecting bus service-which few would actually use.
Pinelawn-exactly one mile east-would be deemed too far away from employment centers and
with its limited service was clearly not going to be used by the regular commuters that rode to
and from Republic. Therefore all that ridership was lost with the closure of Republic Station.
Mileages from LIC: Farmingdale 30.2; Republic 31.4 and Pinelawn 32.4
3-With future electrification there should be just ONE station added to the Central Branch at a
location that is strategic enough that it can draw riders from an unserved area and offer basic
amenities that stations need to have which are good access and available parking for starters.
This location should be someplace that the majority can agree on without opposition.
Central Branch miles from LIC: B Tower 28.6; South Farmingdale was at 30.1 and Babylon 35.8
4-Buff: There are only TWO Cities on Long Island-both in Nassau County and served directly by
the LIRR: City of Long Beach and the City of Glen Cove. Other densely populated communities
in cases are incorporated Villages: Hempstead, Mineola and Babylon being prime examples.
This is something that I recall from attending a MTA meeting back during the 1980s addressing
proposals to both eliminate grade crossings by constructing aerial structures along with the long
proposed Main Line third track: The Village of Mineola opposed any changes at the time that would
have brought any new construction. A Village official specifically mentioned "We don't want to be
the City" in reference to any construction of an elevated station. For the record the incorporated
Villages of Mineola and New Hyde Park have been leading opponents over time of the Third Track
Project and any new LIRR Main Line (Floral Park-Hicksville) changes.
Some LIRR clarifications:
The Babylon Branch is actually in reality only the electrified segment of the Montauk Branch.
The route via St. Albans is on the Montauk Branch.
The West Hempstead Branch begins at Valley (Stream) and is only 4.6 miles long to WM.
St. Albans has been listed in the West Hempstead Branch Timetable for some years - even
though most if not all trains stopping there are Babylon Branch trains.
Most trains to Long Beach and Far Rockaway use the Atlantic Branch via Locust Manor, Laurelton
and Rosedale to Valley Stream. Only through West Hempstead Branch trains not stopping at
Valley Stream use the Montauk Branch along with Babylon Branch trains to and from Jamaica.
A major reason that Montauk Branch trains operating east from Jamaica to points east of
Babylon use the electrified "Babylon Branch" line is that they can make better time on this
route as compared to the Main Line and Central Branch provided that they do not follow too
closely a slower (local) train ahead and depending on time of day and traffic density a train
making first stop Babylon or east can be "run around" a slower train by using crossovers to
the "opposite" track for a portion of the run. I have seen this over time in my LIRR travels.
MACTRAXX
1-SS: Yes-Third rail ties have been regularly installed by the LIRR on diesel routes that have the
potential of being electrified in the future. One example I remember is the Ronkonkoma Branch
got third rail ties along with a major mid 1970s track work program in which welded rail was laid
on the branch as far east as Ronkonkoma.
2-4/2: Republic Station back before it was closed in 1986 was developing a significant "reverse"
commuter ridership from BOTH directions on the Ronkonkoma Branch because of its location on
the Route 110 Corridor. Planners believed that Republic was too close to Farmingdale and that
riders would take advantage of connecting bus service-which few would actually use.
Pinelawn-exactly one mile east-would be deemed too far away from employment centers and
with its limited service was clearly not going to be used by the regular commuters that rode to
and from Republic. Therefore all that ridership was lost with the closure of Republic Station.
Mileages from LIC: Farmingdale 30.2; Republic 31.4 and Pinelawn 32.4
3-With future electrification there should be just ONE station added to the Central Branch at a
location that is strategic enough that it can draw riders from an unserved area and offer basic
amenities that stations need to have which are good access and available parking for starters.
This location should be someplace that the majority can agree on without opposition.
Central Branch miles from LIC: B Tower 28.6; South Farmingdale was at 30.1 and Babylon 35.8
4-Buff: There are only TWO Cities on Long Island-both in Nassau County and served directly by
the LIRR: City of Long Beach and the City of Glen Cove. Other densely populated communities
in cases are incorporated Villages: Hempstead, Mineola and Babylon being prime examples.
This is something that I recall from attending a MTA meeting back during the 1980s addressing
proposals to both eliminate grade crossings by constructing aerial structures along with the long
proposed Main Line third track: The Village of Mineola opposed any changes at the time that would
have brought any new construction. A Village official specifically mentioned "We don't want to be
the City" in reference to any construction of an elevated station. For the record the incorporated
Villages of Mineola and New Hyde Park have been leading opponents over time of the Third Track
Project and any new LIRR Main Line (Floral Park-Hicksville) changes.
Some LIRR clarifications:
The Babylon Branch is actually in reality only the electrified segment of the Montauk Branch.
The route via St. Albans is on the Montauk Branch.
The West Hempstead Branch begins at Valley (Stream) and is only 4.6 miles long to WM.
St. Albans has been listed in the West Hempstead Branch Timetable for some years - even
though most if not all trains stopping there are Babylon Branch trains.
Most trains to Long Beach and Far Rockaway use the Atlantic Branch via Locust Manor, Laurelton
and Rosedale to Valley Stream. Only through West Hempstead Branch trains not stopping at
Valley Stream use the Montauk Branch along with Babylon Branch trains to and from Jamaica.
A major reason that Montauk Branch trains operating east from Jamaica to points east of
Babylon use the electrified "Babylon Branch" line is that they can make better time on this
route as compared to the Main Line and Central Branch provided that they do not follow too
closely a slower (local) train ahead and depending on time of day and traffic density a train
making first stop Babylon or east can be "run around" a slower train by using crossovers to
the "opposite" track for a portion of the run. I have seen this over time in my LIRR travels.
MACTRAXX
EXPRESS TRAIN TO NEW YORK PENN STATION-NO JAMAICA ON THIS TRAIN-PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING TRAIN DOORS
MACTRAXX,
I inquired with the approite department around 2008 I regard to why they won’t add St Albans to the “Babylon Branch” timetable, and their reasoning was that the current timetable is too “thick” and would require another pane.
They did say that they have thought about it. But it’s not that big of an issue and the customers don’t really complain about it.
The railroad does know that Wellwood Avenue would be the location of a central branch park and ride station if they can secure the field south or (west) of the main.
As for South Farmingdale, the concept isn’t so much we need 1000s Of commuters, but rather for customer convenience.
Point is why force a time consuming transfer likely out of the way. When you can stop less than a mile from Farmingdale and walk right off the train into town.
Fact is this would be a fine 2-4 car platform And any lengthing would be dependent on the actual ridership numbers.
This is for North/South service but it needs to be service the community correctly not just provide an North/South connection.
Ideally a Wye in Babylon and Wye in Farmingdale (is possiblly Around republic to be able to run via the Montauk branch and not “change ends” to Ronkonkoma is needed. But that’s something for another conversation and requires more political will than laying 3rd rails and a few slabs of concrete.
Long Island is not the Moses era island they thing they are anymore.
I inquired with the approite department around 2008 I regard to why they won’t add St Albans to the “Babylon Branch” timetable, and their reasoning was that the current timetable is too “thick” and would require another pane.
They did say that they have thought about it. But it’s not that big of an issue and the customers don’t really complain about it.
The railroad does know that Wellwood Avenue would be the location of a central branch park and ride station if they can secure the field south or (west) of the main.
As for South Farmingdale, the concept isn’t so much we need 1000s Of commuters, but rather for customer convenience.
Point is why force a time consuming transfer likely out of the way. When you can stop less than a mile from Farmingdale and walk right off the train into town.
Fact is this would be a fine 2-4 car platform And any lengthing would be dependent on the actual ridership numbers.
This is for North/South service but it needs to be service the community correctly not just provide an North/South connection.
Ideally a Wye in Babylon and Wye in Farmingdale (is possiblly Around republic to be able to run via the Montauk branch and not “change ends” to Ronkonkoma is needed. But that’s something for another conversation and requires more political will than laying 3rd rails and a few slabs of concrete.
Long Island is not the Moses era island they thing they are anymore.
Do you think this would allow service from Babylon to Belmont? (Thinking ahead to when the Islanders arena will be built).
I also think this would be a win win for all. It could have been done and open by now IF they had not p'd all of the money into east side access which in my opinion is a gross waste of money. Think of what could have been IF.
Noel Weaver
Noel Weaver
Noel, I think a main reason behind East Side Access is LIRR wants their own terminal in Manhattan that they have full control of so they can run their own operations, similar to Atlantic Terminal. They are probably very sick and tired of Amtrak's BS at Penn Station. How many messed up days, nights, and rush-hours have been the result of Amtrak's problems? But you rarely hear of any major problem with the Brooklyn Service.
Brooklyn has its own share of problems. But yes much less than penn.
Unfortunately ESA will still have to deal with Amtrak issues in Harold interlocking,
But they are doing a lot of work there so hopefully it will function better in the future.
Unfortunately ESA will still have to deal with Amtrak issues in Harold interlocking,
But they are doing a lot of work there so hopefully it will function better in the future.
When the MTA LIRR's Eastside Access opens up, it will take off some of the pressures at NYP and it might even be a lot, in some cases. This will hopefully get Metro North a lot closer to running select New Haven Line trains by way of the Hellgate Line into NYP, a much needed project for years.
Yes, St. Albans is indeed considered the Montauk Line but while most of the trains running on that stretch are going as far as Babylon, many continue east of Babylon. Obviously the Babylon Line is straight in so many areas with no grade crossings, enabling a 79 mph operation. I'm not sure how many interlockings there are on the Babylon but I can imagine that there are many, more than on the Main Line and Central Branch.
Running any train heading to the Montauk Branch by way of the Main/Central poses some issues-yes, getting stuck behind another train, especially a local. After Queens Interlocking in Queens Village, the next interlocking east, I believe is Nassau and after Nassau, it's Divide. When the third track opens up, I wouldn't be surprise if there is an interlocking installed at the east end of Floral Park station since probably one of the tracks would diverge from the Hempstead Line. Presently having two tracks on the Main Line limits increase in service to the Central Branch.
Yes, St. Albans is indeed considered the Montauk Line but while most of the trains running on that stretch are going as far as Babylon, many continue east of Babylon. Obviously the Babylon Line is straight in so many areas with no grade crossings, enabling a 79 mph operation. I'm not sure how many interlockings there are on the Babylon but I can imagine that there are many, more than on the Main Line and Central Branch.
Running any train heading to the Montauk Branch by way of the Main/Central poses some issues-yes, getting stuck behind another train, especially a local. After Queens Interlocking in Queens Village, the next interlocking east, I believe is Nassau and after Nassau, it's Divide. When the third track opens up, I wouldn't be surprise if there is an interlocking installed at the east end of Floral Park station since probably one of the tracks would diverge from the Hempstead Line. Presently having two tracks on the Main Line limits increase in service to the Central Branch.
njt/mnrrbuff wrote:When the MTA LIRR's Eastside Access opens up, it will take off some of the pressures at NYP and it might even be a lot, in some cases. This will hopefully get Metro North a lot closer to running select New Haven Line trains by way of the Hellgate Line into NYP, a much needed project for years.Buff: 1- ESA will be the big gamechanger for the LIRR as far as schedules are concerned. I expect the biggest systemwide timetable changes since the early 1970s.
Yes, St. Albans is indeed considered the Montauk Line but while most of the trains running on that stretch are going as far as Babylon, many continue east of Babylon. Obviously the Babylon Line is straight in so many areas with no grade crossings, enabling a 79 mph operation. I'm not sure how many interlockings there are on the Babylon but I can imagine that there are many, more than on the Main Line and Central Branch.
Running any train heading to the Montauk Branch by way of the Main/Central poses some issues-yes, getting stuck behind another train, especially a local. After Queens Interlocking in Queens Village, the next interlocking east, I believe is Nassau and after Nassau, it's Divide. When the third track opens up, I wouldn't be surprise if there is an interlocking installed at the east end of Floral Park station since probably one of the tracks would diverge from the Hempstead Line. Presently having two tracks on the Main Line limits increase in service to the Central Branch.
2-Interlockings and crossovers are located on the Babylon Branch: Valley, Rocky(E of RVC), Port(at Freeport), Wantagh and Amityville and then the Babylon area.
3-There are two high-speed crossover pairs on the Main Line: one between New Hyde Park and Merillon Avenue and the other just west of Carle Place.
Queens, Nassau and Divide are the tower locations with their interlocking plants. This should answer your questions...MACTRAXX
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