LIRR train speed

[mark777]

As was said above, the MAS in electrified territory is 80MPH and Diesel territory is 65MPH. There are numerous speed restrictions at numerous locations throughout the property, so 80 is not always achieved. 95 MPH through NHP?? It might look like it does, but it's not. MAS at that location is 80MPH.

[N340SG]

The nominal ATC overspeed trip point for 80 MPH is 83 +/- 1 MPH.
The speedometer reading really doesn't mean much. A measured mile or RADAR reading would be more reliable. Here's why:
The speedometer in the M-1 is driven by the wheel slip panel, not the ATC package. Those electronics are loaded with standard 20% [margin of error] resistors. It is not real accurate.
Also, the gear that the speed sensor monitors in the M-1 and M-3 sees 15.4 hertz per mile per hour for a 32" wheel.
Any size wheel other than 32" will have error. A 29 1/2" wheel will have a considerable margin of error, on the order of getting an overspeed at actual speed of 72 MPH, even though the speedometer may read 78 or 80 or whatever.
Wheel wear cannot be adjusted for in the OEM M-1. The CCM M-1 (Microcab ATC package) is set at 30.5", which is right in the middle of wheel size range from new to scrap.
The OEM M-3 and any car equipped with Microcab package (all overhauled M-3s and all M-7s) can be adjusted for wheel wear.

Most complaints of "speedometer out of calibration" are for M-1 cars. Now you can see why that is.

In the M-7, correct wheel size setting is critical for the propulsion system, as well as the ATC system.

Tom

[Since 1979]

I have been on two LIRR trains that hit speeds well in excess of 100 mph. Both these incidents took place on the predecessor to the current dual modes on the Port Jefferson Branch.

One trip took place on the last day at work of the former President of the LIRR who is best remembered for being out of state during a heavy snowstorm during which, according to the investigative report, the railroad “simply stopped running” - much to the consternation of its passengers. Shortly after emerging from the Penn Station tunnels, an electric appeared next to my Train 660 on the adjacent track. The two trains then accelerated, the electric just matching the acceleration speed of 660 until it hit its MAS.

Train 660, however continued to accelerate to the point that shortly after Forest Hills it almost seemed it was flying. The windows of the apartment buildings it passed were but a blur. Of course it slowed down to perhaps let the President disembark at Jamaica. The only reason I can think of for this event was that it may have been a farewell demonstration of the power of the initial dual mode locomotives, which reputedly could hit 115 mph with the governor off.

The other incident took place during the morning run of Train 605. After leaving Jamaica, the train accelerated as usual and continued to do so while passing an electric on the adjacent track that was operating at its MAS (after over 20 years of riding the LIRR, I have a pretty good idea of approximately when this point is reached).

Train 605 however continued to accelerate until it had to slow down for the curve before Woodside. Although did not reach the top speed during the incident above, it definitely was far above MAS.

Several days later the train set was pulled and did not appear for three weeks – which in my experience was the longest time period that it was ever absent. I can only surmise that someone must have reviewed the speed tapes or whatever device is used these days to track train speed and pulled the units until a fix could be applied that would ensure no future repetition – which could have been disastrous had another incident occurred in grade crossing territory..

[Nasadowsk]

Tom - don't forget, those were 20% resistors....30 years ago when they were new!

Today? I wouldn't bet on them all being within 20%. In fact, I bet at least a few are well out of range. Especially higher value ones.

100+mph on the old DMs? Yeah, sure. They generally ran at 0 mph. Those things were actually less reliable than the DM-30s are. IRC, the Bi-Tanic only ran 15% of the scheduled runs.

A few weeks to modify them? No way - just go to the inverter's controls and turn down the maximum frequency, and they won't exceed that speed, period.

And let's not get into a sense of false security - grade crossing hit at 'only' 80mph has the potential to be a <b>big</b> mess.

IIRC, Budd's blue book says 100mph max on the M-1s - I doubt they had much beyond that.

FWIW, it's not like anyone else's EMUs were faster - the Arrow II/III cars cut out at 103mph (no, they couldn't go 120mph like people say - the cutout was there and maintained) and I doubt the M-2s can do much over 100 either.

[Long Island 7285]

Where the M2's run in Conn.

Is the MAS there 100. or the tracks they run on 80mph while the express tracks are 100mph for amtrak?

Never been there i dont know.

[N340SG]

There are always cases that are out of the ordinary.
I personally have been in MU consists that have attained 102 and another 95.
The first was an "unequipped" no passenger equipment train (PBY)...the speed control was cut out due to failure...and it was around 4 AM. Had Absolute Clears all the way.
The second was due to the quirk that used to exist on certain tracks somewhere between Metropolitan and Harold Interlockings.
The current in the rails was high enough for the Engineer to effectively attain an electric cutout with a 180 code (MAS). That situation has long since been rectified. (Both Engineers are retired. And I forget who they were, anyway. )

But the fact remains that with properly functioning ATC or ASC, MAS will be enforced at nominal 80 for the electrics.
Is it possible that once, in the history of the LIRR, a train whizzed through NHP at over 80? Sure. Due to some anomaly. Is it a daily occurance? No way.

These days, an Engineer would have to be a little nuts to do 95 or 100, even if he could. The M-7 has extensive event recorder monitoring parameters and GPS. If the LIRR wanted to, they could have an immediate alert to 204 and/or Central Control, that a train was above, say 85 MPH, and trial papers could await the Engineer upon arrival at the train's end terminal.
That's not a joke or an idle threat...the technology is in place.

Tom

[Long Island 7285]

These days, an Engineer would have to be a little nuts to do 95 or 100, even if he could. The M-7 has extensive event recorder monitoring parameters and GPS. If the LIRR wanted to, they could have an immediate alert to 204 and/or Central Control, that a train was above, say 85 MPH, and trial papers could await the Engineer upon arrival at the train's end terminal.
That's not a joke or an idle threat...the technology is in place.

This is true, i talked to some one who works for 204 and he told me the same thing about the GPS and tracking a M7 train anywhere on the system.

[N340SG]

Yep, when I was in the M-7 door class, we monitored a train that was enroute, real time. We even saw defects that were automatically being reported. There was a door problem. (This was a burn-in M-7 run, though. So any problems that arose may have been a test.)
You can pick off any train and monitor it. Who has time for that, to monitor all trains? Rather, certain events can trigger alerts. Then the specific train can be monitored.

[njtmnrrbuff]

I think the M2s get up to 80, but that is in NY state between just east of New Roc and a little west of Harrison. Amtrak trains do 90 on that stretch.

[Nasadowsk]

Others know better here (DRN - corrections welcome), but AFAIK, the MAS on the NH line is the same for Amtrak or MN. I've heard that it's the same for diesels and electrics, too, and that theoretically means 60mph curves for the diesels too...

[DutchRailnut]

Correct Amtrak and MNCR speeds are same, the M2's and M4's and M6's are set for max speed of 92 mph in ATC system, the timetable speed is 100 mph for the cars

[RetiredLIRRConductor]

MAS on the LIRR is 80 in electrified territory, 65 in non-electrified. Did you know that the Current diesel fleet is alowed to go 80 in electrified territory, but only 65 in non-electrified? Dont ask me why

[Frank]

The nominal ATC overspeed trip point for 80 MPH is 83 +/- 1 MPH.
The speedometer reading really doesn't mean much. A measured mile or RADAR reading would be more reliable. Here's why:
The speedometer in the M-1 is driven by the wheel slip panel, not the ATC package. Those electronics are loaded with standard 20% [margin of error] resistors. It is not real accurate.
Also, the gear that the speed sensor monitors in the M-1 and M-3 sees 15.4 hertz per mile per hour for a 32" wheel.
Any size wheel other than 32" will have error. A 29 1/2" wheel will have a considerable margin of error, on the order of getting an overspeed at actual speed of 72 MPH, even though the speedometer may read 78 or 80 or whatever.
Wheel wear cannot be adjusted for in the OEM M-1. The CCM M-1 (Microcab ATC package) is set at 30.5", which is right in the middle of wheel size range from new to scrap.
The OEM M-3 and any car equipped with Microcab package (all overhauled M-3s and all M-7s) can be adjusted for wheel wear.

Most complaints of "speedometer out of calibration" are for M-1 cars. Now you can see why that is.

In the M-7, correct wheel size setting is critical for the propulsion system, as well as the ATC system.

Tom

Is the ASC in an M1 reliable? Some people say the ASC doesn't always work.

[N340SG]

ATC systems are, as a fail-safe designed system, and required to maintain close tolerances by FRA, subject to failure.
If there is any doubt, we'd rather have it "fail" and let somebody look at it.
In the dated M-1 OEM system, the very design of some of the operations lends to occasional failures.
M-1 cars with ATC system failures are often "buried" in the middle of a train, so as not to be a controlling pair. They can be let ride around like that until the next PI, as long as the failure does not involve the doors functioning. The pair just cannot be a controlling pair until it is repaired, and a 362 form filed. (This just makes Yardmasters pull their hair out, drilling and burying ATC failures all the time.)
Perhaps that's part of why there appears to be so many ATC failures out there.

Add to this the fact that many brake problems and some door problems are blamed on the ATC system, that turn out not to be the fault of the ATC system at all. Once it is logged as an ATC failure, however, the pair needs an ATC test and 362 form filed.

ATC qualification is the exclusive work of the Electrician craft on the LIRR, and there are not enough Road Car Electricians to tackle all these cars "outside". So, some must wait until PI, or until they can be shopped as repair car.

Tom