Extending the existing CTA system (realistic future?)

[ravenswood]

CTA told me. 11941 people enter the green line south of Roosevelt on an average weekday. That is very few people given the level of service. That is half the level of the Lake Street section of the green line, and only 3,000 more people than enter the purple line in Evanston. It is also almost 3000 people less than the pink line. Like I said, at its farthest before splitting, the green line is .6 miles away from the red line. This is far too close for two rapid transit lines in such low density areas. It means the red line poaches riders from the green line, leaving the green line with less than optimal ridership even though it has decent service. By moving the green line farther east, service to the south side can remain stable but move to a location that allows for greater efficiency. Currently, people who live on the lake shore east of the green line are at most about 1.8 miles away from the green line. If the green line is moved, no one in the area is more than about a mile away from either the red line or the green line. I have not figured out distances for stations just away from the actual rail. By moving the green line, it puts more people closer to rail without a duplication of services which I would hope would increase transit use in the area.

[Chicagopcclcars]

Thanks ravenswood for your reply. What I objected to mostly was your phrase "no one uses"...but even using CTA figures, you will agree that the line IS USED. And to think, the line goes through a square mile that once was the "second most densely populated square mile in the U.S." (51st to 43rd, State to Cottage Grove) The most densely was in Harlem, NY.

Although the area is slow to rebound, there is some new construction and ridership increases. The line will probably host the Red line temporarily in 2013 when the Ryan closes for track renewal. The 2012 IRM Snowflake Charter will offer an excellent inside look.

David Harrison

[justalurker66]

2. What are the maintenance/overall cost of the rapid transit vs bus?

In 2010 (last year with figures available) it cost CTA 35c per passenger mile to run their trains and $1.01 per passenger mile to run their buses. The 35c is in line with what it cost Metra to run their trains (all routes) and NICTD to run their electric South Shore Line.

The "operating expense per trip" is interesting. CTA Bus had a per passenger trip expense of $2.32 and CTA Rail had a per trip expense of $2.14 ... not bad when the fare is $2.25 (although there are non-operating expenses to pay). A CTA bus cost $12.51 per mile or $119.36 per hour to run in revenue service. A CTA train cost $6.94 per mile or $129.62 per hour to run in revenue service. Metra's per passenger trip expense was $7.98 ($13.04 per vehicle revenue mile / $402.84 revenue hour). NICTD's per trip expense was $10.59 ($11.61 per vehicle revenue mile / $415.08 per hour).

Data Source: 2010 National Transit Database

[justalurker66]

The subject of the Gray Line is emotional to some, life giving to others. The subject will come up amongst the most diverse topics...so you'll have to dig. There's even an admission by main supporter that he feels the idea "may not come to fruition in his lifetime."
Given the ten years or so....I tend to agree.

I seem to remember seeing the proponent's age listed as 62 somewhere ... which would give him a shot of living long enough - if the project had a snowball's chance of ever getting approved.

Personally I'm looking for more data from the proponent. He needs to show people that it will work ... with facts, not assumptions. He needs to prove that the project is feasible.

[Jenner]

1. Why does the Red line south have so many slow zones? I can understand the Brown line given so many of the sharp curves, but this shouldn't be a problem for the Red line south.

Your combining "slow zones" with "Brown line curves" shows you might not understand what slow zones are. Are you from Chicago? Every place a train slows down is not a "slow zone." "Slow zones" are all temporary conditions, usually because of track or structural conditions. There may be other causes. When the condition is removed or corrected, the "slow zone" is eliminated. The all-time longest running "slow zone" was probably east 63rd ST on the Jackson Park branch...lasted for decades.

My take on the Ryan slow zones is that the subsurface doesn't drain well enough and the space in the median is too small to allow the CTA to lay a railroad like profile to the ballast.

I happen to live in the Chicago suburbs, not in the city proper. However, the CTA data (from their website) indicates speed reductions as slow zones. I took this to mean that speed must be reduced whenever a slow zone is encountered. According to the CTA, the Brown line curves are also considered "slow zones" because speed is reduced.

As I recall, the Blue line had slow zone issues due to old track infrastructure that needed immediate replacement. I guess I would have thought that the southern Red line would have had good enough maintenance.

The "operating expense per trip" is interesting.

What comprises "operating expense per trip"? Is this all the operating expenses including car and track maintenance?

[Jenner]

This is a pretty wacky idea, but given that the Red line poaches from the Green, and the Red line 95th line will be rebuilt, I don't suppose that the Red line could be moved further west to parallel the Metra SWS? Then it is a straight shot using the UP corridor to extend to 130th.

[justalurker66]

However, the CTA data (from their website) indicates speed reductions as slow zones. I took this to mean that speed must be reduced whenever a slow zone is encountered. According to the CTA, the Brown line curves are also considered "slow zones" because speed is reduced.

"Slow zones are areas where trains are required to operate at slower-than-normal speeds due to track conditions. Slow zone elimination work typically involves replacing aging rail ties and tie plates with new ties and plates, if not whole track replacement.

"Slow zones are instituted in areas where train speeds should be restricted to maintain safe travel. Commonly, this occurs in a section of track that is beyond its service life and in need of repair or replacement. Slow zones are also sometimes established temporarily in work zones over a period of ongoing construction work.

We take your safety very seriously, and continually inspect our railways for signs of deterioration. If track inspectors (or high-tech track-measuring equipment used for inspection) detect advanced wear or potential defects, a temporary slow zone may be put in place (or other, appropriate action taken), pending repair work."
(CTA)

What comprises "operating expense per trip"? Is this all the operating expenses including car and track maintenance?

Pretty much anything that isn't classified as a capital expense. "Per trip" numbers are based on each segment of a ride, not fare gate entry and exit or end to end if the trip involves transfers (which is why the "per trip" costs for commuter rail are so high - people ride longer per trip). I prefer the "per passenger mile" figures. Riding one stop on the "L" vs 90 miles on a line like NICTD isn't the best comparison of costs. (CTA's average trip was 3.8 miles, Metra's was 22.8 miles, NICTD's was 28.1 miles.)

Capital expenses such as buying new equipment and track replacement projects reduce the operating cost of keeping the existing infrastructure running.

This is a pretty wacky idea, but given that the Red line poaches from the Green, and the Red line 95th line will be rebuilt, I don't suppose that the Red line could be moved further west to parallel the Metra SWS? Then it is a straight shot using the UP corridor to extend to 130th.

Almost anything CAN be done, but not all ideas are good ideas. The additional cost of land acquisition, new stations and redesigning the system around the new alignment would raise the cost of the project. The jog over from end of the line at 95th St to the UP alignment isn't bad and while the existing Red Line might be easier to maintain if it were not in the middle of an expressway it is a good place for the line.

[Chicagopcclcars]

According to the CTA, the Brown line curves are also considered "slow zones" because speed is reduced.

Could you show me where this statement is located? As I stated, "slow zones" are temporary. Curves are obviously not temporary but permanent. Perhaps the CTA description is about temporary curves erected at a construction site like when the four track stations at Fullerton and Belmont were reconstructed. Thanks.

David Harrison

[Jenner]

Could you show me where this statement is located? As I stated, "slow zones" are temporary. Curves are obviously not temporary but permanent. Perhaps the CTA description is about temporary curves erected at a construction site like when the four track stations at Fullerton and Belmont were reconstructed. Thanks.

David Harrison

This wasn't a statement per se, but rather an interpretation of the December slow zone map http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/ ... _06_11.pdf.

I was looking at the red markers that indicated speed limitation zones of 25 and 15 MPH. I see that these zones are present on the Brown line curved areas prior to Armitage. Now, that could mean that there are track deficiencies that just correspond at those curves, which is why it is considered a slow zone. I just looked at the map, and interpreted the data to mean that the curves themselves were slow zones based on the sharpness of the curves.

[Chicagopcclcars]

OK...Thanks. Yes, the slow zone was for deficiencies in the track, not for the curve. When the deficiency gets repaired, repaced or otherwise cleared up, the slow zone would be removed and the track speed would revert back to what it was before the slow zone.

David Harrison

[ravenswood]

OK...Thanks. Yes, the slow zone was for deficiencies in the track, not for the curve. When the deficiency gets repaired, repaced or otherwise cleared up, the slow zone would be removed and the track speed would revert back to what it was before the slow zone.

David Harrison

You can see this if you go back a few of the slow zone maps and look at the curve from Belmont towards Southport. Both south and north bound were slows zones and now only the southbound tracks are.The north bound turn was slow zone for an extremely long period of time but CTA had crews out there for an extremely long period of time and now it is not a "slow zone", it still is pretty slow though. Same with all the other curves, the ones south of Armitage. I believe they all became slow zones around fall 2010 or at the very least, that is when I noticed them. I switch back to metra sometime after that and moved after that as well. Sure it is a drop from 20-25 mph to 15mph but most of the slow zones go beyond what is needed for braking into the corner. At the very least, I could tell it was a lot slower (couple minutes). The slow zone in between Addison and Irving Park though was the one that killed me and that had nothing to do with a curve.

On a completely separate note, who owns the right of way angling from the Montrose Blue line stop Northeast through Labagh Woods past Lincolnwood town Center and out to Skokie. If the Brown line was extended to the Blue line, would it be feasible to use this right of way to extend it farther, with stops say at Foster, Peterson, Devon and Touhy. If the Brown line was extended up this ROW do you think it would have enough ridership.

[EricL]

Slow orders occur most frequently on curves just because of normal wear and tear. The tendency is for the wheels to keep moving forward, but the wheel flanges keep them on the rail. So on any given curve, the part of the rail that contacts the flange is always going to wear down more quickly.

Sharp curves (such as those on the Brown/Purple lines north of downtown) carry permanent slow orders to begin with. Those are listed in the employee documentation and usually also posted on permanent wayside signs, as a reminder. Permanent speed limits can also be enforced by the Automatic Train Control (ATC) system, in some cases. These permanent conditions are not considered as "slow zones" themselves, although these particular areas are often susceptible to further slow-ordering, for the reason mentioned above.

"Slow zones" are really what is referred to as "temporary speed restrictions". Every railroad has a staff of track inspectors who normally come out once a day. Each inspector is responsible for a certain section of trackage. Additionally, the track inspectors may be called outside of their normal hours to check on a potentially dangerous defect that's reported by a train operator while enroute. There are any number of reasons why rough track might be found/reported, and it can happen anywhere - even on perfectly straight, level track. 99% of these things happen naturally over time owing to normal wear combined with exposure to the elements. Low joints, sinking ballast, rotted ties, worn railheads, missing spikes/clamps, sun kinks, broken rail, wide/narrow gauge... you name it.

Since it's obviously impratical to shut down the entire rail line for any defect that crops up, the track inspectors impose these "slow zones" until the repairs can be made. It is usually up to the inspector to determine what speed can be allowed, but anything particularly hazardous is usually going to be slow-ordered at 10 mph or less.

The fact that CTA has slow orders isn't inherently bad - the real problem is that it takes so long for them to get fixed, due to tight budgetary and operational constraints.


The line angling northeast from Cicero/Montrose was of C&NW heritage and even once handled a limited schedule of commuter service, years ago. Most of the line is abandoned now. Its last (and nearest) customer, Mayfair Lumber, is closing down soon - if it hasn't already. I don't personally know how much (if any) of the land has been reclaimed by other development. But building a grade-separated flyover in the Mayfair area to connect the Kennedy L with that old R-O-W would be ridiculously expensive. The whole area is already basically triple-tiered, with the expressway down below, the surface streets in the middle, and the railroads up on top. Plus it is also the location of a busy rail crossing (Mayfair) and also it's pretty much right where the Kennedy and Edens split. It was quite the engineering marvel just to get the place the way it is now!

edit: correction: a quick perusal of Google Maps reveals that this line split near Bryn Mawr Ave. I believe it was the west leg that hosted the commuter service in the past, and i think you're referring to the east leg.

[CTA Gray Line]

The subject of the Gray Line is emotional to some, life giving to others. The subject will come up amongst the most diverse topics...so you'll have to dig. There's even an admission by main supporter that he feels the idea "may not come to fruition in his lifetime."
Given the ten years or so....I tend to agree.

I seem to remember seeing the proponent's age listed as 62 somewhere ... which would give him a shot of living long enough - if the project had a snowball's chance of ever getting approved.

Personally I'm looking for more data from the proponent. He needs to show people that it will work ... with facts, not assumptions. He needs to prove that the project is feasible.

I have just discovered this forum, and I will be attempting in the next months and years to demonstrate the benefits of the Gray Line Proposal on this and other Forums, and to the Public, and Transit Agencies.

The question of whether or not the Gray Line has nothing to do with operation, facilities, or costs - it is Completely Political (City vs Suburban Administrations).

It is correct that I am 62, and my working goal is for the Gray Line to come into service concurrent with the implementation of the new coordinated RTA Fare System January 1st, 2015; we shall see if I am right - or ridiculously wrong.

Mike Payne

[justalurker66]

I have just discovered this forum,

Apr 30 2006 Visit the CTA Gray Line Project
Sep 1 2006 September Metra Board of Directors Meeting
Oct 13 2006 RTA Moving Beyond Congestion Community Workshops

Welcome back.

The question of whether or not the Gray Line has nothing to do with operation, facilities, or costs - it is Completely Political (City vs Suburban Administrations).

There are so many problems with the proposed operations, facilities and costs that the politics are barely a part of it. The operational problems of bottlenecks north of 11th Place and at the newly designed Kensington. The operational problems of being able to maintain the headways you propose. The facilities problems of separating Metra and CTA fare zones with separate new platforms and the understated cost of doing it all while collecting less per passenger in fares.

It is correct that I am 62, and my working goal is for the Gray Line to come into service concurrent with the implementation of the new coordinated RTA Fare System January 1st, 2015; we shall see if I am right - or ridiculously wrong.

I doubt it will take three years to disect the proposal and understand the proposal's true worth.

I don't believe it will work. I would like to figure out using real numbers and simulations how close one could get to your dream but there is no way that the Gray Line as you propose would be able to made a reality for the price you have put forth. Perhaps those are 1998 dollars? Even so, building and running a railroad isn't cheap.

[CTA Gray Line]

I have just discovered this forum,

Apr 30 2006 Visit the CTA Gray Line Project
Sep 1 2006 September Metra Board of Directors Meeting
Oct 13 2006 RTA Moving Beyond Congestion Community Workshops

Welcome back.

I apparently just "re"-discovered this Forum, I had honestly forgotten it (I am an heir to Alzheimer's with many, many irons in the fire); Thanks for the Welcome

There are so many problems with the proposed operations, facilities and costs that the politics are barely a part of it. The operational problems of bottlenecks north of 11th Place and at the newly designed Kensington. The operational problems of being able to maintain the headways you propose. The facilities problems of separating Metra and CTA fare zones with separate new platforms and the understated cost of doing it all while collecting less per passenger in fares.

North of 11th Place the east track would be upgraded for service operation, with a new exit platform for Metra and NICTD trains at Van Buren; upgrading of the Interlocking south of Randolph, and modifications to the Millennium Park station. The original Illinois Central Electric Suburban service ran FAR closer headways (along with South Shore trains intermixed) than anything proposed for the Gray Line/Metra/NICTD operation; upgraded signaling, coupled with future Federally mandated PTC should be able to handle the increased headways.

At no point would CTA and Metra/NICTD trains share platfrom facilities, outside of downtown Metra/NICTD trains would only stop in Hyde Park at a new free access 59th St./UoC platform extending north from a joint 59th St. station house to an ADA ramp down to 57th St & the MS&I. CTA Gray Line trains would stop at a barrier-controlled platform over the Midway from 59th to 60th St's. The joint CTA/Metra/NICTD Station House at 59th would have 24 hour concessions like 7-11, McDonald's, Walgreen's, and a Police office to serve the University of Chicago and area residents.

I will not attempt to describe all the changes and modifications involved in one post - but I will continue to answer questions issued promptly - and to my best ability

I doubt it will take three years to disect the proposal and understand the proposal's true worth.

I don't believe it will work. I would like to figure out using real numbers and simulations how close one could get to your dream but there is no way that the Gray Line as you propose would be able to made a reality for the price you have put forth. Perhaps those are 1998 dollars? Even so, building and running a railroad isn't cheap

I requested Operating Cost information for the Electric District from Metra under the FOIA, they said that they didn't separate out the cost of operating the MED from the overall operating cost of the entire Metra system (obvious b/s - but it effectively stopped me dead in my tracks, any suggestions?).

I am a minimum wage ($8.25 ph) Gas station Cashier, up to now I have not been able to afford a Consultant Level Economic Analysis & Study - just promote my idea;
but starting next month my SS benefits begin, and I will be able to afford to do many more things.

In particular - to induce Public support, I will be able to publish and distribute 1,000's of Gray Line fliers per month throughout the South Side;
I have seen many times that the bright colors really attract a lot of attention - everybody wants one, and they really pay attention to what's written:

http://www.box.com/s/jpjnph9bx7zsn13hbmnl http://www.box.com/s/mczvizga9h7kquf0qcsd


Mike Payne | CTA Gray Line Project

http://bit.ly/GrayLineInfo